Sridhara Maharaja (giving "advice" to the post-1978 ISKCON "eleven gurus"): When the second great war broke out in Calcutta, [in] Dalhousie Square — [an advertisement featuring] military dress was written on the wall, was painted on the wall, and there was a saying, “Just take this garb and the dress will tell you what you have to do.” Do you follow? Take the military dress and the dress will direct what you have to do, what will be your duty.
So, a sincere man when he has taken a particular charge, anyhow he will make out what to do, the duty: what is the duty of that post if sincere, and God will help. God helps those who help themselves. You have taken the charge and charge has not come from chance but there is some underground link and then if you try to do then help will come to you.
He [Bhaktivedanta Swami] is not a cheat. You have sincerely taken a charge of the master and the master is not a cheat. He will come to you with all his might, do this. I am helping, I am at your back. When we are all sincere, these things will happen like this.
[PADA: Fine except, can anyone become a doctor, airline pilot, geometry teacher, etc. by simply "wearing the uniform"? This makes no sense whatsoever? A person can "dress up" like a swami, or Jesus, and he becomes a swami, or another Jesus? If that is the case, then many Bollywood actors would be swamis since they dress as swamis in Bollywood movies.
Of course here in San Francisco we have some men who dress up for the "Marilyn Monroe look alike contest," but simply by their dressing up to look like her, that does that make them equals to Marilyn Monroe? The sahajiya men also dress like gopis, does this make them actual gopis?
This process would be great if it worked -- an old man could dress like a young man, and become a young man.A janitor could dress like a brain surgeon, and become one. OK, this is not really going to work, nor will this "external dress makes a new person" idea be accepted in human society -- because, people simply do not really change merely due to having a new dress. Women who have been spurned by their lovers are sometimes reported to "buy a new dress" to beat the blues, but on no account do people think putting on another dress will make one -- God's successor guru?
Sorry, being a guru is a post meant EXCLUSIVELY for a self-realized person, not someone who is dressing as one? This is the problem with Sridhara Maharaja, he thinks some external dress makes a person self realized, this never works in real life.
Sridhara's entire institutional guru idea is an external dress show bottle, he is in favor of "form," or formality, without any substance. Then again Bellvue hospital has more than a few patients who think they are Jesus, Napoleon, Elvis and so forth, this is the result of artificially thinking one is more important or advanced than one really is. Dressing these people as Jesus, Napoleon, or Elvis, does not make these people become their fantasy alter ego.]
Jayapataka Swami asked B. R. Sridhara Swami, "Can there be any restriction on the activities of the guru?" Another devotee elaborated, "It is possible that even if some members of the Governing Body, they are not gurus, but can the Governing Body as a whole make a restriction on the activity of an individual guru?"
B. R. Sridhara Swami laughed at the thought of a non-guru restricting a guru. This was, in his opinion, like allowing an imperfect conditioned soul to instruct a perfect self-realized soul. To avoid this tragicomedy, he suggested an “acarya board” be formed, to secretly “guide the whole thing from behind.” B. R. Sridhara Maharaja explained:
A most difficult thing, (more laughter), a non-guru comes to regulate the gurus. Is it not? . . . Those who are not fit for guru, who are not considered to be fit for guru, he will come to guide the guru? So many gurus, is it? So, it would be better that the Governing, all the members of the Governing Body were guru, and they are all acaryas. . . . The assembly of acaryas, they will consult with each other. . .
[PADA: Fine except, can anyone become a doctor, airline pilot, geometry teacher, etc. by simply "wearing the uniform"? This makes no sense whatsoever? A person can "dress up" like a swami, or Jesus, and he becomes a swami, or another Jesus? If that is the case, then many Bollywood actors would be swamis since they dress as swamis in Bollywood movies.
Of course here in San Francisco we have some men who dress up for the "Marilyn Monroe look alike contest," but simply by their dressing up to look like her, that does that make them equals to Marilyn Monroe? The sahajiya men also dress like gopis, does this make them actual gopis?
Dressing up boys party (boys dressed as girls)
This process would be great if it worked -- an old man could dress like a young man, and become a young man.A janitor could dress like a brain surgeon, and become one. OK, this is not really going to work, nor will this "external dress makes a new person" idea be accepted in human society -- because, people simply do not really change merely due to having a new dress. Women who have been spurned by their lovers are sometimes reported to "buy a new dress" to beat the blues, but on no account do people think putting on another dress will make one -- God's successor guru?
Sorry, being a guru is a post meant EXCLUSIVELY for a self-realized person, not someone who is dressing as one? This is the problem with Sridhara Maharaja, he thinks some external dress makes a person self realized, this never works in real life.
Sridhara's entire institutional guru idea is an external dress show bottle, he is in favor of "form," or formality, without any substance. Then again Bellvue hospital has more than a few patients who think they are Jesus, Napoleon, Elvis and so forth, this is the result of artificially thinking one is more important or advanced than one really is. Dressing these people as Jesus, Napoleon, or Elvis, does not make these people become their fantasy alter ego.]
Jayapataka Swami asked B. R. Sridhara Swami, "Can there be any restriction on the activities of the guru?" Another devotee elaborated, "It is possible that even if some members of the Governing Body, they are not gurus, but can the Governing Body as a whole make a restriction on the activity of an individual guru?"
B. R. Sridhara Swami laughed at the thought of a non-guru restricting a guru. This was, in his opinion, like allowing an imperfect conditioned soul to instruct a perfect self-realized soul. To avoid this tragicomedy, he suggested an “acarya board” be formed, to secretly “guide the whole thing from behind.” B. R. Sridhara Maharaja explained:
A most difficult thing, (more laughter), a non-guru comes to regulate the gurus. Is it not? . . . Those who are not fit for guru, who are not considered to be fit for guru, he will come to guide the guru? So many gurus, is it? So, it would be better that the Governing, all the members of the Governing Body were guru, and they are all acaryas. . . . The assembly of acaryas, they will consult with each other. . .
[PADA: Why does everything have to be done "in secret" in the GBC and Sridhara Maharaja realm? Of course we all heard about the acharya board anyway, it was an open secret.
This also means essentially -- that Sridhara Maharaja disbanded the GBC and its governing principle (and -- if there is no governance -- then we could expect criminality to increase, and it has). He says that the rank and file devotees and even ISKCON managers cannot advise the 11 gurus -- because the 11 are beyond criticism, so the entire body of the devotees (and ISKCON managers) can no longer have any say in how the society is going to be managed.
"Those who are not fit to be gurus -- cannot guide those who are gurus."
This is open anarchy since the 11 will be fully independent of all other input, thus they will be able to act whimsically and without any external checks and balances. Worse -- there could be the development of violent personality cults -- which is what happened after 1936 in Sridhara's false guru cults.
Hansadutta said this was the first problem with Sridhara Maharaja, how could the society be managed -- if we are no longer managing the society -- but we are now managing the acharyas? The Governing Body was never set up to manage the acharyas, nor are acharyas managed by a Governing Body. All of these ideas were never practical or functional from the start, and they lead to a dysfunctional state in ISKCON.]
Sridhara Maharaja: The Acarya Sabha, the assembly of the acaryas, they will perform the function about all the spiritual matters. The Acarya Board. There should be an Acarya Board to guide the whole thing from behind, without non-acaryas within the meeting. Then if anybody within the meeting, then if anybody is considered to be the most expert for the management, he will work under the Acarya Board. . . .
This also means essentially -- that Sridhara Maharaja disbanded the GBC and its governing principle (and -- if there is no governance -- then we could expect criminality to increase, and it has). He says that the rank and file devotees and even ISKCON managers cannot advise the 11 gurus -- because the 11 are beyond criticism, so the entire body of the devotees (and ISKCON managers) can no longer have any say in how the society is going to be managed.
"Those who are not fit to be gurus -- cannot guide those who are gurus."
This is open anarchy since the 11 will be fully independent of all other input, thus they will be able to act whimsically and without any external checks and balances. Worse -- there could be the development of violent personality cults -- which is what happened after 1936 in Sridhara's false guru cults.
Hansadutta said this was the first problem with Sridhara Maharaja, how could the society be managed -- if we are no longer managing the society -- but we are now managing the acharyas? The Governing Body was never set up to manage the acharyas, nor are acharyas managed by a Governing Body. All of these ideas were never practical or functional from the start, and they lead to a dysfunctional state in ISKCON.]
Sridhara Maharaja: The Acarya Sabha, the assembly of the acaryas, they will perform the function about all the spiritual matters. The Acarya Board. There should be an Acarya Board to guide the whole thing from behind, without non-acaryas within the meeting. Then if anybody within the meeting, then if anybody is considered to be the most expert for the management, he will work under the Acarya Board. . . .
[PADA: Non acharyas should not attend the meetings of the acharya board, so that means the whole Governing Managerial board is dissolved.]
Sridhara Maharaja: In our system — both the autocracy and democracy — it cannot go together, cannot go together. But ours is a autocratic thing, extremely autocratic. Guru is all in all.
[PADA: And this is immediately what Kirtanananda, Hansadutta, Harikesh and others began to argue, we are absolute, there should be no democratic opposition, we are the Lords of all we survey.]
Sridhara Maharaja: In our system — both the autocracy and democracy — it cannot go together, cannot go together. But ours is a autocratic thing, extremely autocratic. Guru is all in all.
[PADA: And this is immediately what Kirtanananda, Hansadutta, Harikesh and others began to argue, we are absolute, there should be no democratic opposition, we are the Lords of all we survey.]
Sridhara Maharaja: As you will do and experience yourself, the guru, our submission to guru is unconditional. We’ve felt great difficulty. Submission to guru is unconditional. So, when I shall see that my guru’s followers are being oppressed by other guru, another Vaisnava, it will create a great disturbance in the mind of the sisya [novice]. . . .
[PADA: Right, no one should fault the 11, not even the other 10 in their group, they should be self-sufficient, independent -- i.e. maverick authorities, with no one to answer to. This is what Dr. J. Stilson Judah told me is -- antinomianism, lawlessness in the name of religion]
Sridhara Maharaja: So, both absolute and relative consideration go side by side. Disciples should be encouraged by the absolute consideration mostly and God brothers are more free for relative consideration, but still they should not disturb the newcomers in their premier position and caste, but if unfortunately any bad incident happens, then of course we may have to do some unhappy action, but let God save us from that disastrous condition. . . .
[PADA: This is pretty much Rocana's idea as well. We should rubber stamp a whole pack of gurus, and when some of the fail "we may have to take some unhappy action." OK but what happens if the dissenters are murdered?
Notice what Sridhara Maharaja says: "but let God save us from that disastrous condition." Sridhara Maharaja is going to put a drunken pilot at the wheel of the Jet airplane, and when the plane is in a tail spin going 500 mph towards earth, and all 450 passengers are going to die, well too bad, its up to God to fix that. Really? God has to fix Sridhara Maharaja'as foolish bogus guru program? This is insane, I can create a disaster, and then tell God -- He has to fix it? Who authorized Sridhara Maharaja to put a drunken pilot in the guru seat of the Boeing 747?]
ROCANA DAS (Sampradaya Sun) -- This draft Constitution proposes that when a guru falls down and it comes to light, it is made public to keep others safe. The proffered program of remediation is disclosed and is thus open to be monitored by all. If the guru does not remediate, then he is stripped of membership in the society -- publicly so -- and all parties are warned to steer clear. This part of the process is all-important, but it should be understood as being independent of the front-end due diligence. The burden of responsibility falls in different places, at different times, appropriately and in accordance with sastra.
[PADA: Exactly what Sridhara Maharaja is saying. We should have a pile of gurus, when they fall they will be remediated, censured, monitored, corrected, suspended, stripped of post, expelled and so forth. Yep, they think acharyas are conditioned souls who will fall into illusion -- like the rest of us. None of this was ever done in Vaishnava history, where gurus are voted in, voted out, corrected, censured, etc. All of these regulations apply to a PRIEST, not a guru. Rocana is introducing ritvik through the back door, he is giving all sorts of regulations for gurus, which would only apply to a PRIEST (ritvik).]
Sridhara Maharaja: Give respect to the chair [the office of acarya], so that sort of something like that, something like that adjustment should be kept in the mission. This is when you are alone the acarya brother and non-acarya brother when alone, you can mix freely, if you can give a slap to his cheek. . . . But, when publicly amongst his disciples, you must show [respect]. . .
[PADA: Right, you need to lie to the new people that they are worshiping a pure devotee, but in the back room you can slap that guru in the face for bogus behavior. The entire principle of Sridhara Maharaja is, lie, cheat, bluff and lie again. And Pancadravida, Dheera Krishna, Tripurari swami, Jagat guru swami and many others are all supporting Sridhara Maharaja's lie, cheat, bluff process because they think his ideas are bona fide.]
ROCANA: ARTICLE 8 - GURU-TATTVA
8.1 Connecting to the Pure Sampradaya
8.1.1 The Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, like all bona fide Vaisnava sampradayas, has at its foundation a unique, pure, unalloyed siddhantawhich has been preserved and passed on since the Sampradaya's inception, without adulteration.
8.1.2 The pure siddhanta is passed down through disciplic succession, and is delivered by various means: through the preaching of the Sampradaya Acaryas (the topmost members of the disciplic succession) and through the bona fide spiritual masters who are following them (diksa, siksa and vartma-pradarsika); through the Book Bhagavat (Sri Krsna, the Absolute Truth embodied in sastra); and through Caitya Guru (paramatma).
Sridhara Maharaja: Give respect to the chair [the office of acarya], so that sort of something like that, something like that adjustment should be kept in the mission. This is when you are alone the acarya brother and non-acarya brother when alone, you can mix freely, if you can give a slap to his cheek. . . . But, when publicly amongst his disciples, you must show [respect]. . .
[PADA: Right, you need to lie to the new people that they are worshiping a pure devotee, but in the back room you can slap that guru in the face for bogus behavior. The entire principle of Sridhara Maharaja is, lie, cheat, bluff and lie again. And Pancadravida, Dheera Krishna, Tripurari swami, Jagat guru swami and many others are all supporting Sridhara Maharaja's lie, cheat, bluff process because they think his ideas are bona fide.]
ROCANA: ARTICLE 8 - GURU-TATTVA
8.1 Connecting to the Pure Sampradaya
8.1.1 The Brahma-Madhva-Gaudiya Vaisnava Sampradaya, like all bona fide Vaisnava sampradayas, has at its foundation a unique, pure, unalloyed siddhantawhich has been preserved and passed on since the Sampradaya's inception, without adulteration.
8.1.2 The pure siddhanta is passed down through disciplic succession, and is delivered by various means: through the preaching of the Sampradaya Acaryas (the topmost members of the disciplic succession) and through the bona fide spiritual masters who are following them (diksa, siksa and vartma-pradarsika); through the Book Bhagavat (Sri Krsna, the Absolute Truth embodied in sastra); and through Caitya Guru (paramatma).
[PADA: First of all Rocana has said that Srila Prabhupada's instructions for future initiations are vague and not clear, and he went along with visiting Sridhara Maharaja to clear it all up. And Rocana still says we need to make a pack of people wearing the guru uniform and then "correct them on the back end" after they are deviating, which is exactly Sridhara's idea. Why does Rocana keep writing about a topic he claims is vague and not clear? And why does Rocana keep saying we no longer need any initiated devotees in ISKCON?
Srila Prabhupada said we need initiated devotees to conduct the deity pooja in the temples, Rocana says we no longer require these initiated devotees, we can shut down all the pooja and quit worship of Krishna by no longer having any poojaris.
Where did Srila Prabhupada say -- we will no longer need to have initiated people in the future, therefore in future we shall stop the deity pooja? Srila Prabhupada said for example in Berkeley we will need 50 initiated brahmanas to do the pooja, Rocana says, now, we will have none, we will no longer have any initiated people to do the pooja.
Where was this ordered? Krishna Kanta's IRM has a variation of this same idea, he says we will have no more initiated people until the GBC starts doing ritvik initiations. Fine, what happens if the GBC does not initiate anyone in the ritvik idea for the next 10,000 years, we will have no more deity pooja for all that time?
Perhaps Rocana is the person who is not clear since he never names the diksha guru he wants us to take shelter of? He also keeps saying that there will be another diksha guru in the future, sort of like the second coming of Christ, and we have to wait for that diksha guru to emerge.
How can we manage a society where everyone is sitting on a cliff waiting for Jesus to re-appear? The good news is that all of the rest of us have continued preaching and making devotees of Srila Prabhupada, without waiting for the second coming of Jesus.
Rocana says the siddhanta is completely transcendental and cannot be restricted by formality within this material world, but then he immediately begins to restrict the transcendental process? He says that the books of pure devotee are no longer giving "transcendental knowledge which destroys sins" aka diksha. Most of the people who became devotees did so by reading the books, and that means the transcendental knowledge (divyam jnanam or "di") entered their hearts (and destroyed their sins or "ksha") -- and made them devotees.
There is no restricting the transcendental process. How can we say the books are no longer going to do that? He is saying in essence that the disciplic succession no longer exists, that no one can be directly connected to the parampara. Then he says, the books are directly connecting one, and that is called diksha -- being connected to the pure parampara. In any case, Rocana is a disciple of Sridhara Maharaja, lets make a pack of acharyas, and when their airplanes crash and kill hundreds of passengers, who cares, we'll just make more drunken pilots and more plane crashes. No remorse even.
====================
PADA: Thanks but the only reason that people are even discussing the ritviks is that no one else is putting together a better and more visible alternate program? "Doctor heal thyself" indeed, which begs the question, where is their alternate other better healing program? Why are our critics not "physicians who are healing themselves" by making better programs and doing better than us? Srila Prabhupada says "Example is better than precept," where is the model example of their program? Arm chair managing our program is not making a better program?
Srila Prabhupada said we need initiated devotees to conduct the deity pooja in the temples, Rocana says we no longer require these initiated devotees, we can shut down all the pooja and quit worship of Krishna by no longer having any poojaris.
Where did Srila Prabhupada say -- we will no longer need to have initiated people in the future, therefore in future we shall stop the deity pooja? Srila Prabhupada said for example in Berkeley we will need 50 initiated brahmanas to do the pooja, Rocana says, now, we will have none, we will no longer have any initiated people to do the pooja.
Where was this ordered? Krishna Kanta's IRM has a variation of this same idea, he says we will have no more initiated people until the GBC starts doing ritvik initiations. Fine, what happens if the GBC does not initiate anyone in the ritvik idea for the next 10,000 years, we will have no more deity pooja for all that time?
Perhaps Rocana is the person who is not clear since he never names the diksha guru he wants us to take shelter of? He also keeps saying that there will be another diksha guru in the future, sort of like the second coming of Christ, and we have to wait for that diksha guru to emerge.
How can we manage a society where everyone is sitting on a cliff waiting for Jesus to re-appear? The good news is that all of the rest of us have continued preaching and making devotees of Srila Prabhupada, without waiting for the second coming of Jesus.
Rocana says the siddhanta is completely transcendental and cannot be restricted by formality within this material world, but then he immediately begins to restrict the transcendental process? He says that the books of pure devotee are no longer giving "transcendental knowledge which destroys sins" aka diksha. Most of the people who became devotees did so by reading the books, and that means the transcendental knowledge (divyam jnanam or "di") entered their hearts (and destroyed their sins or "ksha") -- and made them devotees.
There is no restricting the transcendental process. How can we say the books are no longer going to do that? He is saying in essence that the disciplic succession no longer exists, that no one can be directly connected to the parampara. Then he says, the books are directly connecting one, and that is called diksha -- being connected to the pure parampara. In any case, Rocana is a disciple of Sridhara Maharaja, lets make a pack of acharyas, and when their airplanes crash and kill hundreds of passengers, who cares, we'll just make more drunken pilots and more plane crashes. No remorse even.
====================
PADA: Thanks but the only reason that people are even discussing the ritviks is that no one else is putting together a better and more visible alternate program? "Doctor heal thyself" indeed, which begs the question, where is their alternate other better healing program? Why are our critics not "physicians who are healing themselves" by making better programs and doing better than us? Srila Prabhupada says "Example is better than precept," where is the model example of their program? Arm chair managing our program is not making a better program?
Why don't these critics for 35 years heal themselves and make a better program? We are not seeing that for 35 years already, and we do not see any on the immediate horizon coming together? Example is better than precept, so make the better example and we will maybe follow it maybe -- if it works, but no example is not going to be followed by anyone? OK it seems unlikely any competing program will be made, maybe, ever.
The people who say "initiations have stopped" do not seem to be healing themselves by making better programs, nor healing others by preaching to others and, by putting together a better preaching program, and deity program, temple program, samkirtana program, books program, and so on and so forth. So yes, they should heal thyself and start making programs, we'd love to see that, but we aren't? Why are they not healing themselves with a better program?
Why are they not healing others by making these programs? Where is their healing program, period? Our devotees just started a nice home program in one city which has more guests than the ISKCON temple, our program is packed with people and nice kirtana. These people are coming to heal themselves, and chant, hear, read, do deity worship and these are all the things Prabhupada wanted to be done, that is how we heal thyself and others.
Unless someone else does these things, they are not healing thyself nor are they healing others. Yes, we want to see these programs healing thyself and others, and we have waited for 35 years to see such programs, they are not emerging, whereas ours are emerging. If you want us to quit driving our Volkswagen and buy your new Cadillac, fine, but if you do not even have a bicycle to sell us yourself, then your discussion of Cadillac has no value or meaning?
Heal thyself, make these alleged better programs and then we can see how you are healing things, do something thyself, otherwise, criticizing our program is not a program, its not making devotees, temples, printing books or anything, its simply not healing anything, and never will. Where is the alternate healing program, heal thyself means we'd have seen this by now since 35 years? ys pd
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