Thursday, November 9, 2017

Conversation with ISKCON GBC and Sridhara Maharaja #4

Second Conversation With Srila Sridhara Maharaja, Part 4


Nov 06, 2017 — CANADA (SUN) —

BCS: Bengali: 

Dhira Krsna Maharaja says that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Thakur will not tolerate any conclusions which are against the ideas of Srila Rupa Goswami. He will not tolerate them at all. That all the apa siddhantas should be done away with and in that case is it not also our duty to act under the same instruction not to tolerate the apa siddhantas.

[PADA: It was well known all along that various GBC leaders were falling down left, right and center. Again very well known and -- all along -- during the 1960s - 1970s. Why would the falling down sector magically become pure devotees and acharyas all of a sudden -- simply by dint of the fact that Srila Prabhupada had departed? And why would it not be apa siddhanta to declare people with such a dubious track of record of failing -- as acharyas? And why do Rocana and others keep insisting these falling down folks were meant to be worshiped as acharyas and to become Srila Prabhupada's diksha guru successors?

Is is not an offense to say that the successors to God are often falling and deviating? 

Dhira (Sudhir) Krishna has become a big defender of Sridhara Maharaja, who supported the GBC's guru appointment idea, but there is no evidence 11 gurus were appointed? Before we discuss what is proper siddhanta and what is not, should we not establish first of all -- whether or not conditioned neophytes can take the post of acharya? 

Shouldn't "evidence of the guru appointment" be the first topic being discussed, and what are the specific guidelines and policies that Srila Prabhupada gave for how these "11 appointed acharyas" are to operate? Why was there no discussion of how this process was going to operate according to Srila Prabhupada, rather Sridhara Maharaja was being asked how it would operate? 

The fact that Sridhara Maharaja is being asked how this so-called appointed guru process is going to operate proves, there are no other guidelines given by Srila Prabhupada on this process, because he did not order an appointed guru process. When Satsvarupa said that Srila Prabhupada told the GBC to go to Sridhara Maharaja to get instructions on how the appointed guru program would function, that itself proves, there are no "orders" from Srila Prabhupada to make this process.]  

SM: Of course. Two things, one positive and one negative. Negative, atattva, which is not truth, to eliminate that, and tolerance around what is truth, we have to culture cultivate that. These two aspects of the life, of the activities of everyone's life two things: elimination of the undesirable and to acceptance of the desirable. Every second, every point of life, every second we have to do that. Krsna. Hare Krsna.

DKS: Well, I mean I have more questions, after that one question was answered… well, how are they seen in relation to that question. One point was from yesterday. The lowest level description he gave of a madhyama adhikari was one of has both feet in this world, but who has, who is, he said he is "fully experiencing the divine place" so he can… and he says that he can clearly see the divine … so we don't see anyone who practically fits even this lowest description of the madhyama-adhikari guru. Well, I just want to confirm…

[PADA: Hee hee, yes, they even admit they are discussing people who have "both feet in the material world." How can such persons be worshiped as liberated acharyas? Rocana and Kailash keep saying there can be Madhyama diksha gurus, but herein people on the scene admit these 11 GBC are not even on the lowest rungs of the Madhyama platform. So they are kanistha at best, which means literally "the qualified brahmana platform," but they are barely even that level.] 

BCS: Bengali:

Translates the above into Bengali and then further adds that from the descriptions of the third class guru, none of the present eleven acaryas fit even to that category. So what are we then supposed to do with this present situation?

[PADA: Right, it was clear -- even from the out set -- that these 11 people were barely fit even for the third class platform. And this was being relayed to Sridhara Maharaja, so he knew they were not qualified to be acharyas. And so did Bhakti Caru swami and many / most others know this as well. Didn't Rocana also know that these people were faling on a regular basis? Why would they all agree that the failing sector are simultaneously the acharya sector, unless they never understood what is an acharya from square one? Yep, none of the 11 are even fit to be in the third class guru designation, therefore, lets make them full blown acharyas?] 

SM: And if it's going, it is in his view, he is also going and taking the whole retinue with him.

DKS: At most we have some general view.

BCS: Bengali: Not only are both their feet firmly planted in this material world, but also their vision is very much in this material world.

[PADA: Wow, these 11 have BOTH their feet planted in the material world, and their vision is clouded by the material energy. So it was clear to Sridhara Maharaja, Dhira Krishna swami, BCS and others, and of course Rocana et al. that the 11 are conditioned souls, thus not qualified to be gurus or acharyas.] 

SBD: If none of them fit even this lowest category of guru then what is to be done by others who are part of the society?

[PADA: Great question. What is going to happen to the other 5,000 disciples of Srila Prabhupada who may not want to support these "two feet in the material world" "not yet Madhyama" gurus?]

SM: The question will come, this sort of vision is coming from what section? That is to be examined, the foundation on which you stand. That is that soil is to be examined by particular cases. If you like my advice about the decision then particular cases should be given to me.

SBD: Particular persons, and their personalities.

SM: The personal defects, the sample of personal defects. "This is the objectionable practice, in this gentleman. Is it bona fide? And spiritual color? Spiritual color or mundane color?

DKS: We don't want to embarrass him with the details.

SM: So in this action we think it to be mundane but if it may have any spiritual color? The particular case you may put before me and I shall try to understand. If such…

DKS: I am saying that I don't want to embarrass him with any unpalatable details.

[PADA: Now it is further clarified, not only the 11 have two feet here in the mundane world, they have a tendency to act in an unpalatable (fallen) manner, or even a depraved manner. OK, some of the 11 might tend to be sexual predators or worse, and all this was made clear to Sridhara Maharaja right out of the gate. So they may at any moment act in an abominable and unpalatable manner, therefore, they are acharyas? Is this not an attack on the acharya platform?]

BCS: translates

SM: kanak, kamini, pratistha. Generally those undesirable activities will come under these three groups. Prathistha is find, that one wants to take the credit, the whole credit within his clutches, just as you say about (name). (name) says that "I am the person who has received the maximum grace of guru maharaja and confidence." 

That is pratistha, may come into the category of pratistha. Another is kanak, means money, men and money. hmm. The power. He is very … he has got thirst, unquenchable thirst to acquire money, men and power. Must have power. Another is kamini, that he is falling prey to the women. Hmm. charm, and mixing beyond the limit. These three classes complaint may come, and highest is prathistha, and in there also it may include that he is even, he's excluding guru maharaja and he's trying to take his position that he is greater than him.

[PADA: He has two feet here, and he wants to be recognized as the acharya. That means he is already "trying to take his guru's position" or worse, he is saying "that he is greater than" his guru. Again, shows that many people were well aware of the fallen nature of the 11, and it was being predicted the types of failures they could, or eventually would succumb to.] 

DKS: Like he once said to one of Prabhupada's disciples, he inferred that Prabhu… he said, "You must serve a person, not a concept." So he was inferring that Srila Prabhupada was reduced to a concept and he was the living embodiment of this guru tattva.

BCS: Bengali… you cannot serve a concept… Prabhupada is not a person now, he is only a concept… he reduced Srila Prabhupada to a concept … I am the person so you must serve me, must go through me…

[PADA: Now they are discussing that Srila Prabhupada is clearly being minimized, while the bogus 11 are being artificially conflated to the post of acharya. So they all knew Srila Prabhupada was being minimized, and they also knew the strategies and techniques that were being used to minimize him.]

SM: guru bhognike This is not objectionable to the extreme, but partially objectionable because, suppose there are five sons of a father and the eldest son says to the youngest, "You don't know the ways how to satisfy the father. You must what I shall say. You do that to please my departed father. These things were very favorite, to offer these things…" 

This sort of advice may be given. If it is in… such color then of course it is innocent. That I have got more experience about Prabhupada's nature so if you really want to do favorite work of Prabhupada, you use my experience, this will help you a great deal. Don't try to connect direct … connection … relation with him. You'll be deceived. You'll not able to come to his concrete self, it will be only vague. This sort of…

[PADA: Guru bhoghi, yes a person who desires to enjoy the post of his guru. How does that qualify them to be gurus? Guru bhogha, that means Sridhara Maharaja is identifying that they are possibly or probably diseased and contaminated with the desire for guru position. Why was this issue not discussed threadbare, that they have two feet in the material world, perhaps their only qualification is -- sheer audacity and blind ambition, aka guru bhognike.]

BCS: Maharaja, we heard about the characteristics of a parama-hamsa, that he extracts the nectar. Separates the milk from water, and he takes the milk That now we can see in you the manifestation of that quality, like from… you are always taking the nectar…

SM: ki bolche? (What is he saying?)

SBD: repeats the statement in Bengali

SM: (laughing) Bright side…


SM: Yes, I am simply trying to see the brighter side of it so that we may not commit any mistakes against the other party. We must always see the brighter side. Let me say this in Bengali. When Srila Prabhupada disappeared, left this planet, then Vasudeva was made the acarya and then many senior disciples like Nemi Maharaja objected. 

He said that when a branch is directly connected with the trunk and he is then asked to connect himself with another branch, is that possible? This was the argument he forwarded. And then I started pleading the case of Vasudeva because he was like my elder brother. I said, according to Srila Rupa Goswami the service to a devotee is the greatest and it is at the same time service to the Supreme Lord. Although the bhakta is only a part, but yet by serving the bhakta even Lord Krsna is receiving the service, is being served. 

By trying to serve the Lord directly, the Lord might be served or may not be served. But by serving the Lord's devotee, definitely both the devotee as well as the Lord, is served thereby. The Srila Rupanuga vicar according to Srila Rupa Goswami is that once you serve the sadhu, the guru, vaisnava, then the Lord is also being served. So that is how I approached this particular situation. That if an elder godbrother is being served and through him our guru is being served, then we are being successful in our devotional life and when the senior godbrother is very favored of the Lord, is dear to the Lord, then I am serving the guru through him and ultimately the Lord Himself. This is the conclusion. 

[PADA: Correct, Sridhara Maharaja said serving falling down people like Ananta Vasudeva is serving Krishna. Its not.]  

My own speculation might say so many things but this is the actual conclusion of the sastras so when I am approaching such a subject I should be very careful so as not to commit any mistake. I should always see the brighter side to avoid any mistake. 

[PADA: Seeing the brighter side of neophytes posing as acharyas is a mistake in itself? We should see the brighter side of the pirates taking over the ship, ok then we will lose the ship and all its passengers?] 

We must eliminate all the undesirable elements and try to see the brighter side of everything. Judging it very exhaustively in order not to make any mistake and then even if we fail in that endeavor, then of course there is nothing left for us to do. There is no recourse to that. Do you understand? We must see all the possibilities from their point of view. 

We must choose all the possible arguments they might face. Once the great learned advocate Rajmeri Gosh came to the court quite drunk and started pleading the case of his opponent and the lawyer Abhira of the other side was looking on quite amazed at this thing. He was thinking that "This advocate is stating all the facts and points of my client." And then the junior advocate of Rajmeri Gosh suddenly reminded him that, "Sir what are you doing? You are stating all the arguments for your opponent." 

The advocate exclaimed, "Is it so?" Then he started telling the judge that, "You honor, these are the different points and arguments my opponent may raise, so now I am placing forward my argument, the points I want to bring to you." And when he started speaking about the points he originally wanted to say for his own client, then the other lawyer was quite dumbfounded and had practically nothing to say. 

So all the arguments that the other party might want to give, we shall discuss them in detail and bring out the salient points so that we might not make any mistakes. We must be aware that we are not influenced by any prejudices. Just like they are being influenced by prejudices, we should be careful not to commit the same mistake. We must be well-guarded so that we are not led astray of the path of truth.

English: We must be safe. To make our position safe we shall try our best not to commit any mistake, so we shall try to see the bright side of the other party, eh? This may be like that, you see… (Bengali re: Vasudeva Prabhu) … the friend of mine on the other party may say as much like this something now, please hear that I am cutting everything… Bengali…

SBD: Bengali:
Maharaja, the advice (name) gave his godsister (name), she joined much earlier to (name) and had Srila Prabhupada's association from earlier times and longer.

SM: Bengali:

Not everything can be judged according to the time span. Just like Bhakti Caru Swami, he came much later and became very beloved of Srila Prabhupada. Not everything can be judged according to the time factor.

English: Seniority is not the only criterion.

[PADA: Great, so they almost all knew all along the 11 are not fit to be acharyas, but they crammed that forward anyway. That means Sridhara Maharaja and everyone who knew this was wrong from the outset is responsible for the ensuing: banning, beating, molesting, murders, degradation of the acharya post, bad publicity, scandals and so on ad infinitum; -- which all happened as a result of their helping the promoting of conditioned souls as de facto messiahs. Yep, they are not acharyas, but we should forget that, look to the bright side and pretend that they are, and then chaos, scandals and murders will be the result. 

Now the GBC is holding "management classes" where they say, "we have to learn from our (acharya's) mistakes," so they are officially now saying acharyas are defective people who make mistakes, who fall down, who make scandals and etc. This is the result of all this, the acharya is now a mundane person who has "two feet here."

ys pd]

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