Puranjana dasa says:
GEORGE: I am sorry Puranjana but you are stating just the opposite of what Srila Prabhupada is stating. You are stating that a neophyte cannot accept disciples but Srila Prabhupada is clearly saying just the opposite, that a neophyte can accept disciples:
PD: No, Srila Prabhupada told us that if we [neophytes] allow others to touch our feet we will then be acting as diksha gurus, we will thus be absorbing other’s sins, and we will get sick, fall down, or both.
And in case you have not noticed, there has been a horrific epidemic of these bogus diksha guru folks getting sick, falling down and so forth. Yes, how often have we heard this sorry story, “Ohhhh booo freaking hooo, he — ‘accepted too much karma’ — and so now, he fell down.”
OK except, he was told not to act as a diksha guru and accept karma? Srila Prabhupada clearly said, we are not allowed to act as diksha gurus and thus absorb sins. Lots of women were touching our feet at those pandal programs in India, so he said — we have to touch their heads and give them back the karma, even if a woman touched us brahmacharis, he said, never mind, touch their heads back.
[We later built a wider walk way so they could not touch our feet.]
Sorry, a neophyte who thinks he can absorb sins like Jesus, will be walking with Beelzebub and not Jesus. Srila Prabhupada never indicated that we had the powers of Jesus to absorb the sins of others, just the opposite, he said we would be overwhelmed and doomed thereby. ys pd
mark (USA) says:
“We only know what he did. It is plain as day. He took himself out of the loop of all management, and he considered that formality management, no doubt.”
Mahesh Jan 25 Prabhupada: Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) …knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.
And to demonstrate that I understand the “grey” area alluded to by Srila Prabhupada when he did not deny its importance, but instead said it is not “very” important, I wrote the following.
Feb 9, 6:41 pm
“This following quote of yours is highly indicative of your misunderstandings.
George S: “I had always assumed that the permission had been granted because although formal initiation is simply a formality it is a requirement, to keep up the social thing I imagine.”
Why imagine? “keep up the social thing?” Oh boy. Listen closely.
The upanayana samskara where the sacred thread is given to a twice born brings him closer to the spiritual master. The ceremony is also referred to as upaniti.
“The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual science is called upanīti, or the function that brings one nearer to the spiritual master. One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master cannot have a sacred thread” Adi 1.46 : PURPORT
There are also the little fact of the Gayatri mantra and Gopal mantra are given, which assist one in purifying oneself so that they may chant the Maha Mantra with less and less offenses over time…
(My quote from 2/9 is continued after the quotes below from Prabhupada giving proof of my statements above)
Prabhupāda: “Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Then, as he practices, becomes more purified, then second initiation. Gāyatrī. Gāyatrī-mantra. But the first initiation, according to Jīva Gosvāmī, that is sufficient. Chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, Gāyatrī, is given. So we are creating brāhmaṇas in the western countries.”
(Room Conversation with Sanskrit Professor — August 13, 1973, Paris)
“Yes, it is all right that you address me as Spiritual Father. As I have several times explained, when initiation is given, the Spiritual Master becomes the spiritual father and the gayatri mantra becomes the spiritual mother and thus second birth takes place. ”
(Letter to: Hrdayananda — Los Angeles 6 July, 1971)
“I am arranging how the Gayatri mantra should be given to the advanced students. You can simply let me know how many of our students are fit for this purpose. Unless one is strictly following the first initiation process and following the regulative principles, one should not be recommended for the Gayatri mantra.”
(Letter to: Yamuna, Gurudasa — Los Angeles 16 April, 1970)
Back to my quote from 2/9
…This is why there is NO permission for even a pure neophyte to initiate and accept disciples on his own behalf. A neophyte may be pure in his faith, but he does not have the realization to pass mantras potent to assist a disciple to realize any more than he has.”
“As far as the time of dīkṣā (initiation) is concerned, everything depends on the position of the guru. As soon as a bona fide guru is received by chance or by a program, one should immediately take the opportunity to receive initiation.” (Madhya 24.331 purport)
“Therefore, to approach a bona fide guru, or spiritual master, is essential. The bona fide spiritual master is he who has received the mercy of his guru, who in turn is bona fide because he has received the mercy of his guru. This is called the parampara system. Unless one follows this parampara system, the mantra one receives will be chanted for no purpose. Nowadays there are so many rascal gurus who manufacture their mantras as a process for material advancement, not spiritual advancement. Still, the mantra cannot be successful if it is manufactured. Mantras and the process of devotional service have special power, provided they are received from the authorized person. ”
(SB 8.16.24 : PURPORT)
Prabhupada: Well, first of all, thing is if the spiritual master is not bona fide, how his mantra can be bona fide? Your statement is contradictory. If you say the spiritual master is not bona fide, then how his mantra becomes bona fide? If he is bona fide, then his mantra is bona fide.
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.41-42 — Surat, December 23, 1970)
All mantras should be received through the authorized guru, and the disciple must satisfy the guru in all respects. (SB 6.8.42 purport)
Lord Siva voluntarily came to bless the sons of the King as well as do something beneficial for them. He personally chanted the mantra so that the mantra would be more powerful, and he advised that the mantra be chanted by the King’s sons (raja-putras). When a mantra is chanted by a great devotee, the mantra becomes more powerful. Although the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is powerful in itself, a disciple upon initiation receives the mantra from his spiritual master, for when the mantra is chanted by the spiritual master, it becomes more powerful. Lord Siva advised the sons of the King to hear him attentively, for inattentive hearing is offensive.
(SB: 4.24.32 purport)
Prabhupāda: “…So a mantra should be captured from the disciplic succession. According to Vedic injunction, sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te nisphala mataḥ: “If the mantra does not come through disciplic succession, then it will not be active.” Viphala. Mantrās te viphalāḥ. Viphala means “will not produce result.”
(RC September 11, 1969, London, At Tittenhurst)
So, again, you go ahead and initiate unlimited disciples on your own neophyte behalf based on the fact that you have free will to do it and therefore “CAN” do it, and expect to suffer the consequences as well as watch your disciples suffer as well. I don’t wish this burden on you, or curse you to it, I am just pointing out the facts
But if I hear you are doing so in an Iskcon temple or under the banner of Iskcon, I will stand up and call you a Bogi Yogi and great offender of the Founder Acarya of Iskcon. And if I am empowered to do so, I might just arrest your pompous ass.
15. March 2013 at 6:52 pm
Puranjana said: A neophyte cannot act as a diksha guru and accept disciples, because for starters he cannot absorb the sins of others. And moreover, if he artificially attempts to take that post, he will get sick, fall down, or both (as we have seen in spades) and cause havoc (as we have seen in spades),
George replied: I am sorry Puranjana but you are stating just the opposite of what Srila Prabhupada is stating. You are stating that a neophyte cannot accept disciples but Srila Prabhupada is clearly saying just the opposite, that a neophyte can accept disciples:
Mark and Srila Prabhuapda defend Puranjana: “First what Puranjana meant was that a neophyte cannot properly deal with the sins that he absorbs, because anyone who accepts a disciple takes absorbs the sinful reactions. Second and most importanlty, Puranjana said “DIKSA GURU”. There is a difference between accepting Siksa disciples (which anyone can do) and becoming someone’s Initiating Spiritual master. (Especially in an Asrama where the Initiating Spiritual Master has reserved the worship for himself.”
A neophyte is not a preacher and is not powerful enough (empowered by the Lord) to deal with sins of others.
“Accepting an unlimited number of devotees or disciples is very risky for one who is not a preacher. According to Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, a preacher has to accept many disciples to expand the cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he naturally accepts the disciple’s sinful activities and their reactions. Unless he is very powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful reactions of his disciples. Thus if he is not powerful, he has to suffer the consequences, for one is forbidden to accept many disciples.”
(Madhya 22.118 : PURPORT)
“So Kṛṣṇa’s so powerful that He can immediately take up all the sins of others and immediately make it gone. But when a living entity plays the part on behalf of Kṛṣṇa, he also takes the responsibility of these sinful activities of his devotee. So to become a guru is not an easy task. You see? He has to take all the poisons and absorb. So sometimes, because he’s not Kṛṣṇa, so sometimes there is some trouble. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu forbidden that “Don’t make many śiṣyas, many disciples.” But for preaching work we have to accept many disciples, for expanding preaching. Never mind we suffer. But that’s a fact. The spiritual master has to take the responsibility of all the sinful activities of his disciples. So to make many disciple is a risky job unless he’s able to assimilate all the sins.
(Talk with Bob Cohen — February 27-29, 1972, Mayapura)
SRILA BHAKTISIDDHANTA DIDN’T EVEN WANT TO ABSORB THE SINS OF NEOPHYTES
“I was not very much interested in these matters because my Guru Maharaja liked very much publication of books than constructing big, big temples and creating some neophyte disciples. As soon as he saw that His neophyte disciples were increasing in number, He immediately decided to leave this world. To accept disciples means to take up the responsibility of absorbing the sinful reaction of life of the disciple.”
(Letter to: Satsvarupa, Uddhava — Los Angeles 27 July, 1970)
AND WHO IS THE OFFENSELESS AND SINLESS ONE WHO CAN GIVE DIVYA JNANAM AS A DIKSA GURU AND GIVE THE SIKSA TO GO WITH IT AND BE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO ABSORB AND ASSIMILATE SINS WITHOUT GOING MAD?
“One cannot be situated in the devotional service of the Lord unless one is free from sinful life. This is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā (7.28): “Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the duality of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination.” A person who is already cleansed of all tinges of sinful life engages without deviation or duality of purpose in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. In this age, although people are greatly sinful, simply chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra can relieve them from the reactions of their sins…
…If one always chants the holy name Kṛṣṇa, gradually one is freed from all reactions of sinful life, provided he chants offenselessly and does not commit more sinful activities on the strength of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. In this way one is purified, and his devotional service causes the arousal of his dormant love of God. Simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and not committing sinful activities and offenses, one’s life is purified, and thus one comes to the fifth stage of perfection, or engagement in the loving service of the Lord.”
(Adi 8.26 PURPORT)
Prabhupāda: Yes. (corrects a word ) You first accept these ten different methods. So explain that.
Pradyumna: Guru-pādāśrayaḥ. “First one must take shelter of the lotus feet of a spiritual master.” Tasmāt kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam. Tasmāt, “from him,” kṛṣṇa-dīkṣādi-śikṣaṇam, “one should take kṛṣṇa-dīkṣā, initiation, and śikṣā.”
Prabhupāda: Dīkṣā means divya-jñānaṁ kṣapayati iti dīkṣā.(?) Which explains the divya-jñāna, transcendental, that is dīkṣā. Di, divya, dīkṣāṇām. Dīkṣā. So divya-jñāna, transcendental knowledge… If you don’t accept a spiritual master, how you’ll get transcen… You’ll be taught here and there, here and there, and waste time. Waste time for the teacher and waste your valuable time. Therefore you have to be guided by an expert spiritual master. Read it.
Prabhupāda: Śikṣaṇam. We have to learn. If you don’t learn, how you’ll make progress? Then?
(Room Conversation — January 27, 1977, Bhuvanesvara)
And for understanding that superior identity we require superior knowledge, not ordinary knowledge. Divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. So this is the duty of the guru, to awaken that divya-jñāna. Divya-jñāna. And because guru enlightens that divya-jñāna, he is worshiped. That is required…
…One who has got this divya-jñāna, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahātmā, that is mahātmā. But that is very, very rare. Otherwise, mahātmā LIKE ME, they are loitering in the street. That is. So you should always remember this word, divya-jñāna hṛde prakāśito. And because the spiritual master enlightens the divya-jñāna, one feels obliged to him. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo yasya prasādān na gatiḥ kuto ‘pi **. **So this guru-pūjā essential.**
**As the Deity worship essential… It is not cheap adoration. It is the process of enlightening the divya-jñāna.**
(Lecture — Bombay, April 1, 1977)
“These forms are called arcā-mūrtis, or forms of the Lord which can be easily appreciated by the common man. The Lord is transcendental to our mundane senses. He cannot be seen with our present eyes, nor can He be heard with our present ears. To the degree that we have entered into the service of the Lord or to the proportion to which our lives are freed from sins, we can perceive the Lord. But even though we are not free from sins, the Lord is kind enough to allow us the facility of seeing Him in His arcā-mūrtis in the temple. The Lord is all-powerful, and therefore He is able to accept our service by presentation of His arcā form. No one, therefore, should foolishly think the arcā in the temple to be an idol. Such an arcā-mūrti is not an idol but the Lord Himself, and to the proportion to which one is free from sins, he is able to know the significance of the arcā-mūrti. The guidance of a pure devotee is therefore always required.”
SB 3.1.17 : PURPORT
So, George, are you ready to accept some Neophyte Guru Puja in front of Srila Prabhupada’s murti in your local Iskcon temple?
I DARE YOU.
Rukmini Ramana dd says:
15. March 2013 at 8:59 pm
GBC STATEMENT MARCH 9 2013
“Those who accept the service of diksha or siksha guru within ISKCON are mandated to be strict followers of the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, and, as long as they follow, they are acting on the liberated platform. Thus they may serve, as Srila Prabhupada ordered, as bonafide representatives of the Lord and the Guru Parampara and be a via medium of Their mercy. Yet it should be clearly understood that if such diksha or siksha gurus deviate from strictly following, they may fall down from their position.”
Thus, to act as a diksha guru in ISKCON means to serve under the GBC and in cooperation with other ISKCON authorities by functioning as a “regular guru” as Srila Prabhupada has directed.”
This is what Bhakta George is saying, neophyte gurus are not saksadhari -- “as good as God” so to speak, but, have to be checked 24/7 by an inspecting authority. Or as the church has it for their priests, a consistory, advisory board, in order to sort out black sheep. Of course, this is the church’s procedure for priests.
Whereas in Vaishnavism we deal not with priests but with direct representatives of God, diksha-gurus, members of the parampara. GBC position paper is insofar surprisingly that it is hard to believe that this took them 35 years to find out that there their gurus can fall-down at any moment.
And, their level of realization is to carefully follow the rules and regulations and repeat Prabhupada’s teachings. In other words, just like a child who repeats a word is correct, although not understanding what is the meaning of this word.
In Vedabase we find this level of realization described as:
“Similarly, the neophyte devotee serious about advancing in devotional service must carefully follow the principles of regulative devotional service; otherwise there is every possibility of his falling down. Strictly speaking, if a devotee ignores the regulative principles and acts according to his whims—if, for example, he does not eat Krishna-prasadam but eats anywhere and everywhere, such as in restaurants—there is every possibility of his falling down. If he accumulates money without spending it for devotional service, there is every possibility of his falling down. If he applies his energy not in the service of the Lord but in some material activity, there is every possibility of his falling down. If the devotee does not engage himself always in hearing and chanting the topics of Krishna and His activities but instead indulges in idle talk, there is every chance of his falling. If a neophyte devotee does not follow the orders of the spiritual master and simply officially sticks to the principles, or if he does not strictly follow the principles, there is every possibility of his falling down. To become greedy is another cause of falldown. And to associate with persons who are not in devotional service is the last word in maya’s allurements for causing a devotee to fall down.”
(NBS 1 -- The Value Of Devotion)
In sum, above Srila Prabhupada highlights the position of a neophyte devotee where there is every possibility of his falling down.
Why and how the GBC arrives at this conclusion to call those neophytes, “SPIRITUAL MASTER” remains rather unreproducible.
The very term, spiritual master implicates expertly, masterly. If there is such a high rate of failures as Bhakta George repeatedly laments what has this to do with master?
Isn’t this rather apprentice, trainee, aspirant, claimant (= priest)?
[PD: Yes, the GBC has to monitor their gurus, proof their gurus are conditioned souls. ys pd]