Narayan Maharaja with Tamal Krishna swami
Gaura Govinda Maharaja: “Bahir mukha jīva, materially conditioned soul who has forgotten Krishna, forgotten his own sac-cid-ānanda svarūpa, for getting pleasure he wants three things – kanaka, kāmiṇī, pratiṣṭhā. Kanaka — material wealth, kāmiṇī — women, and pratiṣṭhā — name and fame. All are mad after these three things. They take all risks to get these three things in this material world.”
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France, 25 June 1986
Gaura Govinda Maharaja: “Bahir mukha jīva, materially conditioned soul who has forgotten Krishna, forgotten his own sac-cid-ānanda svarūpa, for getting pleasure he wants three things – kanaka, kāmiṇī, pratiṣṭhā. Kanaka — material wealth, kāmiṇī — women, and pratiṣṭhā — name and fame. All are mad after these three things. They take all risks to get these three things in this material world.”
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France, 25 June 1986
Narayan Maharaja is another person who said we were never in Krishna's leela or sport. Srila Prabhupada's God brothers said the same thing. And in 1972 they complained about his "Back to Godhead" idea, and Srila Prabhupada told us -- they do not know we were once with Krishna because they are tinged with Mayavada.
RD: The problem of evil is perhaps the hardest nut to crack for theists and its handling is also a way to see their expertise. Which explanation do you personally prefer?
PH: I consider Kṛṣṇa's will as supreme, and logical arguments attempting to justify suffering imply Kṛṣṇa's arrangements must obey logic, which I don't believe. If Kṛṣṇa doesn't enjoy our suffering, it should be unnecessary. It's not what I would expect if Kṛṣṇa wants a loving relationship with us.
RD: Fine but the fact that He wants *voluntary* service means we must have a chance to choose aversion. Hence this world. He doesn't directly want our suffering but it's a necessity of voluntary service. Does that make sense?
PH: Service coerced by a threat of suffering is not voluntary. Otherwise slaves are voluntarily working. It can only be truly voluntary by making it genuinely attractive, not as a relief from punishment. The fact that Kṛṣṇa imposes suffering on bewildered living beings causes aversion from devotional service. If this is a conundrum, Kṛṣṇa should be able to solve it with His causeless mercy.
RD: The perspective that it's Krsna lovingly pulling our ears to call us back is not wrong but many people get put off by the fact that there is tremendous suffering. Actually, no suffering surmounts that of separation from the Lord but without its realization that is hard to believe. Thus I am trying to talk to you about suffering being an absolute necessity in the material world as an alternative to voluntary service. Turning away from service is suffering by nature so that cannot be changed ever and it would also be super cruel because there would be little incentive to return to service.
PADA: Srila Prabhupada says that the souls who want to be independent of God are sent to the material world where they can enact their evil desires to do independent things. Similar story is that of Satan, he was a highly placed angel, and he fell. Adam and Eve also fell away, and so on and so forth. Its not that hard to figure out, independence from God is Satanic, it produces evil, and its that simple.
PH: Why is an independent desire necessarily evil?
PADA: Once the renegade souls fall into the material world, they then become overcome by the modes of the material nature. In other words, Krishna arranges so that the renegades will have to be contained by the material nature. Its a punishment for trying to be independent. Its the way Krishna arranges things, we are either a cooperating citizen, or we are a renegade and we have to go to prison.
Of course independence is itself an illusion, nothing is independent of Krishna. So we wanted to be in illusion that we are separated and independent, and Krishna facilitates to some degree, but He makes it miserable to try to wake us up from this illusion and bring us back to realizing we cannot be independent. Of course its also considered as evil to break away from the government's laws and to be independent and start breaking the laws of the state, then we might have to go to jail to learn that we are not independent of the government.
Generally, breaking the laws means we are encroaching, exploiting and harming others, and that is why it is evil and it has to be contained. And it is being contained by either Krishna or the state, because exploiting others is the result of being independent of the laws and its not acceptable in either Krishna or material kingdom.
PH: The government is limited in its ability and must create solutions that are possible within nature's constraints. Kṛṣṇa has no such limitation, so punishing us must be His choice. It's a crude method of dealing with conflicts, and seems as though God should be able to make a better way. I want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa with love, but I'm too conditioned with fear from being in the material environment for so long.
PADA: OK but Krishna makes our independence miserable in order to encourage us to come back home. Even after making our independent existence miserable for hundreds of millions of years, many of us still want to remain independent and only a few teeny small percent of us fallen jeevas want to return. So if there was no incentive to go back, there would not even be the teeny percent being reclaimed, ok nearly none. So Krishna wanted to reclaim this teeny percent on a regular basis, and for Him, its worth it to do all the rest.
Its His desire to reclaim some of us, and He does that. We may or may not like the process, but, it works. Why should Krishna simply sit around arguing with us forever? We ourselves also do not do that. When we are always arguing with our ungrateful. intolerable or maybe even cheating mate or boss, we divorce them or quit the job, we do not tolerate indefinite insolence ourselves. Why should Krishna? We cannot expect Krishna to do something we ourselves would never do?
VM: Krishna is not callous. "The Lord likes to be under the control of His devotees. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that everyone comes before the Lord and offers Him exalted prayers, but the Lord does not feel as pleased when offered such prayers as He does when a devotee, out of pure love, chastises Him as a subordinate." (SB 4.12.42, Purport)
"I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him." This partiality of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is natural. A person cares for his children not because of partiality but in a reciprocation of love. The children depend on the father's affection, and the father affectionately maintains the children. Similarly, because devotees do not know anything but the lotus feet of the Lord, the Lord is always prepared to give protection to His devotees and fulfill their desires. He therefore says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati: (BG 9.31) "O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes."" (SB 8.12.47, Purport)
PADA: "Due to the infinite desires of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is existence in the spiritual world, and due to the infinitesimal desires of the living entity, there is existence in the material world. When the infinitesimal living entities are engaged in their infinitesimal desires for material enjoyment, they are called jīva-śakti, but when they are dovetailed with the infinite, they are called liberated souls. There is no need to ask, therefore, why God created the infinitesimal portions; they are simply the complementary side of the Supreme. It is doubtlessly essential for the infinite to have infinitesimal portions which are inseparable parts and parcels of the supreme soul. Because the living entities are infinitesimal parts and parcels of the Supreme, there is a reciprocation of feelings between the infinite and the infinitesimal. Had there been no infinitesimal living entities, the Supreme Lord would have been inactive, and there would not be variegatedness in spiritual life. There is no meaning to a king if there are no subjects, and there is no meaning to the Supreme God if there are no infinitesimal living entities. How can there be meaning to the word "lord" if there is no one to overlord? The conclusion is that the living entities are considered to be expansions of the energy of the Supreme Lord, and the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the energetic."
tlc/20
SD: I don't think I can continue this conversation here without committing some offenses to my Guru-varga because they are not respected here. But if you would like to conversation offline, please dm me your email address.
PADA: There is no respect for Krishna to say He starts some souls with Him and some not, because He is a biased bigot with His children.
HS: Interesting how people can still believe that the Jiva-badha felt down from Goloka or Vaikuntas due to being envious of Krishna / of course as if indeed the Jiva-Bhada ever was at the presence of Radha Krishna....
PH: If we never knew Kṛṣṇa before, then bhakti is practically the Stockholm Syndrome.
HS: Do you believe the Jivatma felt from Vaikunta ?
PADA: Interesting that the Gaudiya Matha said that the jeevas came from Maha vishnu, which means they started out as conditioned souls. That is somewhat as the Vatican teaches, some souls start with God, others (us poor slubs) do not start out with God. Fortunately, I am no longer following the teachings of the Vatican. Yes, all kinds of people were here with Krishna at the time of the Kurushetra war, and they tried to kill Him. Just because someone is "here with Krishna" does not guarantee he will be His sevaka.
HS: Whenever a Jiva takes part in Krishna Lila does not necessarily means it's a Jiva Mukta / no 90% of cases those are Jiva-badha in evolutionary process getting closer and closer to Krishna. Technically no Jivatma can fall from Vaikunta unless that is a plan already in place like for example Jay and Vijay who were "cursed" by Brahma Kumaris to fulfill the purpose of Krishna Lila.
PADA: Yes, as we said already, the idea that Krishna starts our some souls with Him and some not is -- the teachings of the Vatican. Srila Prabhupada said we have to go back home "BACK to Godhead," and when his God brothers said this is wrong, we were never there with Godhead, Srila Prabhupada said they do not know we were once with Krishna because they are tinged with mayavada.
Srila Prabhupada writes in SB 3.12.3: “The Lord first of all tries to protect him from the trap, but when the living entity persists on gliding down to hell, the Lord helps him to forget his real position to give the chance to see if he is happy by misusing his independence.”
"Question Dr. John Mize : the soul somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride…why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing.
Prabhupada: That is his independence... They committed offense… That was their fault... So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence.
Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?
Prabhupada: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence...Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal… in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down…. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fallen down, that is not independence. That is force." (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, June 23, 1975)
And he states that the soul doesn’t fall originally from the brahmayjoti.
”Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krishna… in His lila or sport.” (SPL, 1973)
HS: That expression BTG Srila Prabhupada used because it was appealing to those western followers who came from traditions that believe in the fall of souls and angels from paradise. It has nothing to do with what the Vedic texts explain.
SD: It's from the 4th canto with Puranjana and the city of 9 gates . . but the whole thing is highly allegorical to begin with. It's actually one of the few times when Srila Prabhupada and the other commentators are very clear: yep, this is an allegory.
PADA: Back to Godhead was a phrase used by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the 1920s and it was used by Srila Prabhupada in his 1940s writings, including his original Back to Godhead magazine. The idea that we were never with God is the teachings of the Vatican, this is the Western idea.
“The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence…
Yep, we were connected previously ... correct.
HS: Of course with all due respect and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada but when saying we do have little independence therefore we can choose to COME BACK to the material world ? Does it even make sense ?
PADA: Yes, we are living beings, thus we are not mechanical robots. Yes we can always choose to love Krishna, or not love Krishna, because we are living beings. A robot cannot choose, but we are not a robot. So if we choose to love someone, we can also choose not to ...
HS: There is something really out of context / remember what scripture says after reaching Vaikunta and enjoying spiritual relationship with Krishna / how in heaven it would even occur to a sanely mind to think about going back to suffering life after life / after escaping from Samsara ??? Does Srila Prabhupada actually do quote verses from scripture to backup what he saying ? It seems more likely he is adapting the teaching for a particular audience.
I am not a pandit but I have never ever read anywhere in the Vedas that remotely suggests we originally came from the Vaikuntas.
PADA: This is the first problem, you think that when we have no choice then we are sane, nope, then we are robots.
HS: No no my friend that is not the case at all / please provide scriptural evidence to support your claim.
PADA: Why do you think the Vatican idea is correct? We just provided shastra: We had a connection previously. You gave up my company. This is from shastra. Everything a pure devotee says is shastra. What is shastra, if it is not the speaking of the Lord and His pure devotees. The speaking of pure devotees is not shastra? Then what is shastra? Ooops, the Vatican? That is shastra? Some souls start with God, some do not, that is what the Vatican says. I grew up hearing that. ys pd
HS: PADA if you grew up hearing that well well well / maybe it's time for to grow up listening Srila Rupa Gosvami :
The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)
PADA: That is what Narayan Maharaja people told me, the Nitya Baddha were always conditioned souls Nitya -- forever. So God places some souls in heaven forever, and some in hell forever. Got it! And that is your idea of a loving God, He puts some of His children in hell, Nitya, forever?
The NM idea is even worse than the Christians idea, at least they don't think we have already been in hell forever. Yes, I heard that already, God is such a mean minded person He places some of His children in heaven forever, and some in Hell forever, He is cruel by placing many of His children in jail forever -- for not even doing any crime. Why does God place some of His children in jail forever, for no reason? Again, why would I adopt the Vatican siddhanta?
HS: First of all it's not SNM teachings its common knowledge between Sadhu / Guru and Shastra / second where Prabhupada or scripture says Tatashta Shakti is hell .... ? Hell comes as a result of sinful activity performed exclusively by the Jivatma / as you know Paramatma within the heart acts as a witness not as a doer.
PADA: So its common knowledge that God makes some of His children at their original state into Nitya baddhas -- condemned to conditioned life (hell) from birth? Why does God give some of His children a room in His house, and other children a room in Hell? And why do the NM people keep telling me that is how God operates? The tatastha shakti is us, the jeevas, the jeevas can move from one place or the other, we are the tatastha shakti. We do not originate in choice, choice is a verb, a place is a noun. This makes no sense? We originate in "moving"? Why does NM folks say some of us are in Hell -- Nitya baddha, without ever being with Krishna, while others are with Krishna, thus God is not equal to His children, that is the question they never answer?
HS: "There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha.
Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas. "
Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London
PADA: They do not know WHEN they came in contact with the material world? Fine. But they CAN know HOW that happened. And NM says the Nitya Baddha were never with Krishna, so there are two classes of souls, the chosen people who start out with Krishna, and the non-chosen lesser class children. Why does NM teach Vatican ideas? No, even a mundane man gives all of his children an equal status from the start? God is less than a mundane man, He cannot be equal with His children? And why would God place hundreds of trillions of His baby children in hell, right at their original start? That means NM thinks God is an evil tyrant.
HS: Read above and you see Srila Prabhupada teaching the same understanding.
PADA: No, Srila Prabhupada does not teach that some souls are special chosen ones, to be with God, and some are not? That is false. He says we ALL have to go back to Krishna because we ALL START there, as do ALL the children. He has never taught this "special chosen sector of children" idea?
HS: No he doesn't / you are saying the chosen souls. And no no Jiva-badha STARTS HERE / Srila Prabhupada clear explains above there are TWO TYPES OF SOULS and all the way up from Lord Brahma down to the insignificant ant / we are all Jiva-badha NOT Nitya Siddhas
Jiva-badha are already part of material manifestation / not part of the eternal spiritual world. Thus Nitya baddha until achieving liberation which is always available by the merciful Lord and His servants. The term eternal conditioned applies to the Jiva-badha exclusively because nobody knows when we as Jivas first manifested here or when the entire material manifestation began and that is due to the nature of the Lord which is eternal.
PADA: No one knows what happened? God just does things willy nilly with no explanation? God just drops some people over here with Him, some people over there without Him, no explanation can be known. God just does everything randomly. Same as the --- Vatican idea? No, there is a cause for the fall down of the jeevas, and it can be known, and it has to be known in order to reverse the process and go back.
HS: Well if you understand the word eternal which applies to the Lord then you can understand why its impossible to determine a time-frame when His material creation was manifested or when precisely everything started. One thing for sure Prabhupada makes very clear Jiva-badha are those within the material creation NOT those from His spiritual ( invisible ) creation.
PADA: God does not toss His children willy nilly randomly into hellish situations for no reason AT ANY TIME. Nor would God place His children in Nitya hell forever -- when they were just at their originating baby stages point AT ANY TIME. Nor would we be going back to Godhead unless we were once there. Yes, the Nitya Baddha are people are the people who were once WITH KRISHNA, but became envious of Krishna, and thus FELL down.
We did not fall for no reason. There is a reason for things because God is INTELLIGENT, He does not act randomly. You keep talking about how we cannot understand the TIME FRAME, that is fine, I am talking about the cause -- whatever time that took place is not the question.
HS: You have to keep in mind that within the material creation everything is temporary so the term Nitya Baddha is just to illustrate the unknown or uncertainty of how long a Jivatma might stays in the material world. However as you should know we are all here temporarily until Lord's grace or pure devotee comes in our way.
PADA: I have never argued whether or not the exact time we fell is important or not important, what is important is that we fell for a reason. And if the material world is temporary as YOU JUST SAID, then we were not here Nitya Baddha, forever. You are arguing with yourself. We came here at a certain point, that means we were not here always as Nitya Baddha, forever. We came to the temporary world from the permanent world, that is the right idea. We did not eternally live in the temporary world, which makes your argument null and void.
HS: And nope we were NEVER with the Lord / otherwise we would not tolerate to be here separated from Him. We do not know that BLISSFUL Bhava to be with HIM / therefore we are continuously under the influence of illusion.
PADA: OK. So Narayana Maharaja thinks we fell here because God gives some of the children a nice home with Him, and some a place in hell without Him. Yep, Vatican.
HS: You are under illusion / don't worry it's normal for someone who never met the Lord.
PADA: But in Krishna's leela in the Krishna book, all sorts of people meet the Lord, and then they want to kill Him, like Kamsa. Just because someone is with Krishna does not mean he will not be envious of Krishna? So you simply confirmed that NM is preaching exactly what the Vatican preaches, told ya!
NM thinks God is the cause of the illusion of the fallen souls, because they were not originated with God. God creates souls who are destined for illusion and hell. Anyone who is with Krishna will never fall away from Him, that makes no sense when so many people who were with Krishna wanted to fight with Him, and even -- kill Him.
HS: See how much illusion ? I told you already this is NOT SNM teachings its common knowledge among Sadhu Guru and Shastra.
PADA: Its common knowledge that none of the people who were here with Krishna were fighting with Him -- and maybe trying to kill Him, because they were "with the Lord"? No, simply being with Krishna does not guarantee freedom from envy of Krishna, otherwise the whole pastimes of Krishna book are false?
And! Its common knowledge that God creates some souls with Him, and creates some souls in hell without Him? Yes, its the common Vatican idea. And if simply being with Krishna means we are nitya surrendered to Him eternally, why are people fighting Krishna when they are here with Him in the Krishna stories?
HS: Hell is your understanding / NOT the understanding of Tatashta Shakti. BTW stop calling God's creation a hell / IT'S NOT
PADA: Forgetting Krishna is hell according to Srila Bhaktivinode. Who says that is not hell? Why does NM say God puts some souls with Him, and some not with Him, thus God creates suffering? Anywhere that people are forgetful of Krishna is hellish, that is what Srila Bhaktivinode says.
HS: I don't know what SNM says whatever that is his advanced realizations.
What I know is that Krishna manifested this and the spiritual world for HIS PLEASURE / if you understand that you are half way up towards Vaikuntas or Goloka if you will.
PADA: Anyway, this is good. When we said NM is making God to be worse than an ordinary man, we were right. An ordinary man gives ALL the children an equal start, because he loves ALL the children equally. God is not advanced enough to be equal with all of His children ... And as such, the children were not originally divided, as the Vatican teaches. Originally they were all KRISHNA conscious living beings. Some fell LATER on.
Of course Narayan Maharaja also helped Satsvarupa write the "Guru Reform Notebook" starting in 1984, which lead to the 1986 GBC "guru voting" system. And then NM was hanging out with the "voted in" gurus like Indradyumna, Sivarama and others. Guru voting, and Vatican Pope voting. More Vatican stuff. It never ends. ys pd
HS: You mentioned SNM over one 100 times or more / geee man / you seems very knowledgeable of him / where does SNM say that ? The entire paragraph please.
PADA: NM said that Sridhara Maharaja is correct (we originated in brahmajyoti). Not too worried, you are also parroting NM and giving me his same Vatican jeeva tattva. And NM's guru voting process that he helped the GBC with is -- Vatican's Pope voting tattva.
HS: Here is another great Vaishnava from Gaudiya lineage :
Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord."
PADA: There is tons of evidence NM was associated with the GBC guru party, and this can be found in many documents on their own sites. He is seen in a photo hugging Kirtanananda and so many things like that. He invited me to his ashram to discuss all this, then avoided me and sat in his room and left me sitting for 10 hours, then he sneaked out the back door and left the property. I am an eye witness to that because I was there. If you have never read the extensive connections to NM and the GBC gurus like Tamal, you really have not studied the issue at all. And if the GBC are gurus aka eternally liberated souls, why are they falling down left, right and center?
HS: You are changing the subject. Ok what about YOU purposely ignoring Srila Prabhupada instructions when he is saying there are two types of Jivas eternally liberated and eternally conditioned.... ????
PADA: No, I said you are taking things out of the context of many other statements, for example, Back to Godhead, return home, revive your dormant Krishna consciousness and many other quotes we provided already. For you to say that God places some of His children in the material world to suffer (eternally?) and die etc., means you follow the Vatican idea. I am not with that process anymore. No, the souls are not put in eternal hellish suffering when they start off, that would make God a Satanic person. Guru voting is another Vatican idea, its not changing the subject. ys pd
HS: The answer for this quote is that its common knowledge this chapter of the SB is based on allegory and has already been explained earlier that
>> It's from the 4th canto with Puranjana and the city of 9 gates . . but the whole thing is highly allegorical to begin with <<
PADA: And that is the whole problem, NM takes things out of context to "prove" the wrong thing. He wants to prove that the Vatican idea is correct. Its not. He wants to prove that the GBCs deviants are "sampradaya" gurus, they are not. He also enables the GBC to create a Vatican style guru voting system. Its bogus.
NM has endless amounts of time to talk to the GBC gurus, but he has not got five minutes to talk to us. He goes to hug and talk to the deviants posing as gurus, but he does not talk to us and hug us. He said we are ritvik poison, so he could enable goondas to come and kill us "poison offenders."
He enabled these murders thereby. And then he wants to lecture is that Back to Godhead is a bogus idea? He has no idea what Godhead is, or he would not enable sexual predators and deviants to be worshiped as the successors to God.
NM supported and enabled the GBC's child molester / devotee assassinating guru program of Tamal Krishna, and NM was hanging out in Dallas with Tamal. And then we had to sue the Tamal and NM "guru varga" for $400,000,000 in the same DALLAS for mass child abuse. Yes, this is the root of the problem, the bad guys and their enablers, shiksha guru advisors, assistants, rasika teachers etc., they are also co-opted to blame as well.
When one of my associates met with NM in Dallas to say -- Tamal is not an acharya, NM was literally spitting mad at my associate, he was getting NM's spit on his face as NM was yelling at him. NM defended the molester's guru program, and that is PLENTY evidenced. And no wonder NM does not like Back to Godhead, he wanted to send people back to the molester messiah's "guru varga" program so he can keep people trapped in the material world. ys pd
HS Srila Prabhupada writes :
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)
[PADA: Narayan Maharaja's "eternally nitya siddha" acharyas are falling down left, right and center? Of course that was one of my questions, what exactly is a child molester "guru varga." Hah hah, no wonder NM avoided me. I also had a copy of the poison tape with me, and he said I was poison for promoting that issue, but he did not want to see me or hear the tape after he invited me to his ashram. He avoided me and stayed hiding in his room ...
Anyway! That is jeeva tattva. The shakti avesha jeeva acharyas cannot fall down because they are covered with Krishna's shakti, and these GBC guru jeeva acharyas who are covered with NM's shakti are falling into -- illicit sex with men, women and children. The nature of the shakti avesha jeeva is, he cannot fail because he is empowered direct from Krishna, and the nature of the jeeva acharyas empowered by NM's endorsing is, a fall down festival.
NM wanted people to worship his acharya fall down festival and he said my idea of worship of the bona fide acharya is bogus. This is jeeva tattva, the shakti avesha acharyas are not falling, the NM avesha acharyas are falling down left, right and center. He has no idea what is shakti avesha and what is not. Worse, he advertises fallen as shakti avesha jeevas. This is Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta we are discussing here. Why would anyone endorse falling people into supposed shakti avesha acharyas? And why don't you folks know that they are different categories?
So the eternal acharyas of NM are considered as associates of Krishna, which is why NM's acharyas are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children? This is sahajiya vada on steroids.]
HS: No no no that is NOT what Prabhupada is saying. You are fabricating stories out of your psychedelic mind. And know nothing absolutely nothing about Jiva tattva.
PADA: Liberated souls never fall down, unless they are shakti avesha aka acharyas, in which case they are falling down left, right and center. Are you aware that this is an insult to the acharyas? Yes, this is jeeva tattva, the shakti avesha acharya jeevas do not fall … The pure jeevas never fail, unless they are directly NM's shakti avesha empowered acharyas, then they fail left, right and center? No wonder NM avoided me!
Thus NM is saying (A) pure devotees never fail unless (B) they are shakti avesha acharyas, then they will fail left, right and center? So the acharys are (A) nitya Mukta and therefore they behave like (B) nitya baddha? Why is NM saying these things?
HS: F*ck that sh*t man stop talking about SNM / get real Prabhupada says Nitya Baddha and Nitya Siddha. You have to face this fact instead of blaming others trying to accommodate your personal misunderstanding.
PADA: So you are arguing with your own shadow? Pure devotee acharyas never fall down, because they are directly empowered by Krishna's "shakti avesha" (dressed with God's power)." Ooops, unless they are members of NM's "guru varga," then NM's pure devotee acharyas are falling down left, right and center.
That is NM's understanding and its what NM was preaching. So as soon as I am in the eternal shakti avesha protection of Krishna, I will be falling down into illicit sex with men, women and children --- left, right and center. What kind of preaching is Narayan Maharaja giving us here?
I am asking how pure devotee acharyas can be both shakti avesha, and simultaneously falling down left, right and center. That is what NM said, they are gurus, they are guru varga, and then -- his acharyas are -- falling. Where does Srila Prabhupada, or any other acharya, say that the guru varga is full of debauchees, or supporters of debauchee guru programs like NM? And since the first wave of NM's acharyas are falling, how can the fallen vote in more pure acharyas?
Please cite chapter and verse shastra for a change? This is not my personal idea, Srila Prabhupada says anyone who says gurus are deviants is an offender. And Krishna says the same thing, He casts false preachers down. And as for saying that Back to Godhead is false, well what does it matter if worship of debauchees as guru varga is the standard, no one can get to the higher plane in any case.
HS: No no no that is not what SNM saying THAT is exactly what Prabhupada says pure devotees do come down sometimes / GET REAL.
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)
PADA: The nitya siddha acharyas never fall down, but NM's guru varga is falling down left, right and center. An illicit sex guru varga has no idea what is an acharya, for starters, never mind finer details like what is Back to Godhead for the ordinary jeevas. You also just defied what NM says, he says the gurus are Nitya siddhas, and the GBC are part of what he says are gurus, and they are clearly Nitya Baddha still. How can a person be both Nitya Siddha and Nitya Baddha at the same time? No wonder NM would not speak with me!
HS: Ok let's put this way / based on what you said above / if you do not show a prove that SNM says what you wrote above I will have no other choice but to consider you a delusional liar ! How about that ? Prove what you just said above or else you are a liar.
PADA: NM was with the GBC gurus the whole time? NM was advertised by various GBC as their rasika advisor. NM was fighting with our people who disagreed the GBC are gurus? NM helped Satsvarupa write "The Guru Reform Notebook." NM was in a photo hugging Kirtanananda. NM said we (Prabhupadanugas) are not in the guru varga (because we do not worship pedophiles)? He told Jayadvaita that the GBC can be worshiped as rati keli siddha, etc. etc. etc.
You mean the followers NM have no idea he was promoting the GBC gurus? Sheesh! NM was with the GBC and he said our idea is bogus and he said that the whole time? He was not with the GBC gurus and not promoting them? That is called re-writing history. He told Jayadvaita they can be worshiped as rati keli.
NM was in Dallas and he did not know Tamal was promoting the GBC as gurus? When everyone else in the universe knew that, except, NM?
Wow, so NM had no idea the GBC were promoted as rati keli gurus never mind he was with them the whole while? Never mind his people said this is the guru varga, and his people still say they are the guru varga. Rati keli is not nitya siddha? That means NM does not even know the basic points of the religion?
Rati keli devotees are illicit sex, and not nitya siddhas? Rati keli gurus are not in the guru varga? What are they in then? NM and his followers often used the term guru varga, they used it then and they still use it now.
And Tamal and his pals were gurus .. and that is what NM promoted. And that is why there are many conversations with Tamal and NM on their sites ... so NM was with the GBC the while time, but he did not know they are being promoted as rati keli siddha gurus? Everyone else knows that except NM?
NM people used the term guru varga all the time, and still do. NM knew the GBC were promoting themselves as gurus (of the guru varga). NM knew I was promoting the poison issue and he said I was a deviant for that, so he invited me to come over and discuss and explain it, but he lied, he never wanted to listen to the tape I brought with me and he sneaked off the property. Many discussions with the NM and GBC party are found on their sites, in addition to photos of NM with GBC people like Tamal.
NM told Jayadvaita that the GBC will be worshiped as rati keli, and he knew they were being worshiped that way because he was with them all the time, and so on and so on. Anyway good, NM says that God starts out hundreds of trillions of His children in the material world in forgetfulness of Krishna, because He wants His children to suffer and die. That is what we thought he was saying.
RD: The problem of evil is perhaps the hardest nut to crack for theists and its handling is also a way to see their expertise. Which explanation do you personally prefer?
PH: I consider Kṛṣṇa's will as supreme, and logical arguments attempting to justify suffering imply Kṛṣṇa's arrangements must obey logic, which I don't believe. If Kṛṣṇa doesn't enjoy our suffering, it should be unnecessary. It's not what I would expect if Kṛṣṇa wants a loving relationship with us.
RD: Fine but the fact that He wants *voluntary* service means we must have a chance to choose aversion. Hence this world. He doesn't directly want our suffering but it's a necessity of voluntary service. Does that make sense?
PH: Service coerced by a threat of suffering is not voluntary. Otherwise slaves are voluntarily working. It can only be truly voluntary by making it genuinely attractive, not as a relief from punishment. The fact that Kṛṣṇa imposes suffering on bewildered living beings causes aversion from devotional service. If this is a conundrum, Kṛṣṇa should be able to solve it with His causeless mercy.
RD: The perspective that it's Krsna lovingly pulling our ears to call us back is not wrong but many people get put off by the fact that there is tremendous suffering. Actually, no suffering surmounts that of separation from the Lord but without its realization that is hard to believe. Thus I am trying to talk to you about suffering being an absolute necessity in the material world as an alternative to voluntary service. Turning away from service is suffering by nature so that cannot be changed ever and it would also be super cruel because there would be little incentive to return to service.
PADA: Srila Prabhupada says that the souls who want to be independent of God are sent to the material world where they can enact their evil desires to do independent things. Similar story is that of Satan, he was a highly placed angel, and he fell. Adam and Eve also fell away, and so on and so forth. Its not that hard to figure out, independence from God is Satanic, it produces evil, and its that simple.
PH: Why is an independent desire necessarily evil?
PADA: Once the renegade souls fall into the material world, they then become overcome by the modes of the material nature. In other words, Krishna arranges so that the renegades will have to be contained by the material nature. Its a punishment for trying to be independent. Its the way Krishna arranges things, we are either a cooperating citizen, or we are a renegade and we have to go to prison.
Of course independence is itself an illusion, nothing is independent of Krishna. So we wanted to be in illusion that we are separated and independent, and Krishna facilitates to some degree, but He makes it miserable to try to wake us up from this illusion and bring us back to realizing we cannot be independent. Of course its also considered as evil to break away from the government's laws and to be independent and start breaking the laws of the state, then we might have to go to jail to learn that we are not independent of the government.
Generally, breaking the laws means we are encroaching, exploiting and harming others, and that is why it is evil and it has to be contained. And it is being contained by either Krishna or the state, because exploiting others is the result of being independent of the laws and its not acceptable in either Krishna or material kingdom.
PH: The government is limited in its ability and must create solutions that are possible within nature's constraints. Kṛṣṇa has no such limitation, so punishing us must be His choice. It's a crude method of dealing with conflicts, and seems as though God should be able to make a better way. I want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa with love, but I'm too conditioned with fear from being in the material environment for so long.
PADA: OK but Krishna makes our independence miserable in order to encourage us to come back home. Even after making our independent existence miserable for hundreds of millions of years, many of us still want to remain independent and only a few teeny small percent of us fallen jeevas want to return. So if there was no incentive to go back, there would not even be the teeny percent being reclaimed, ok nearly none. So Krishna wanted to reclaim this teeny percent on a regular basis, and for Him, its worth it to do all the rest.
Its His desire to reclaim some of us, and He does that. We may or may not like the process, but, it works. Why should Krishna simply sit around arguing with us forever? We ourselves also do not do that. When we are always arguing with our ungrateful. intolerable or maybe even cheating mate or boss, we divorce them or quit the job, we do not tolerate indefinite insolence ourselves. Why should Krishna? We cannot expect Krishna to do something we ourselves would never do?
VM: Krishna is not callous. "The Lord likes to be under the control of His devotees. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is said that everyone comes before the Lord and offers Him exalted prayers, but the Lord does not feel as pleased when offered such prayers as He does when a devotee, out of pure love, chastises Him as a subordinate." (SB 4.12.42, Purport)
"I envy no one, nor am I partial to anyone. I am equal to all. But whoever renders service unto Me in devotion is a friend, is in Me, and I am also a friend to him." This partiality of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is natural. A person cares for his children not because of partiality but in a reciprocation of love. The children depend on the father's affection, and the father affectionately maintains the children. Similarly, because devotees do not know anything but the lotus feet of the Lord, the Lord is always prepared to give protection to His devotees and fulfill their desires. He therefore says, kaunteya pratijānīhi na me bhaktaḥ praṇaśyati: (BG 9.31) "O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes."" (SB 8.12.47, Purport)
PADA: "Due to the infinite desires of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is existence in the spiritual world, and due to the infinitesimal desires of the living entity, there is existence in the material world. When the infinitesimal living entities are engaged in their infinitesimal desires for material enjoyment, they are called jīva-śakti, but when they are dovetailed with the infinite, they are called liberated souls. There is no need to ask, therefore, why God created the infinitesimal portions; they are simply the complementary side of the Supreme. It is doubtlessly essential for the infinite to have infinitesimal portions which are inseparable parts and parcels of the supreme soul. Because the living entities are infinitesimal parts and parcels of the Supreme, there is a reciprocation of feelings between the infinite and the infinitesimal. Had there been no infinitesimal living entities, the Supreme Lord would have been inactive, and there would not be variegatedness in spiritual life. There is no meaning to a king if there are no subjects, and there is no meaning to the Supreme God if there are no infinitesimal living entities. How can there be meaning to the word "lord" if there is no one to overlord? The conclusion is that the living entities are considered to be expansions of the energy of the Supreme Lord, and the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, is the energetic."
tlc/20
SD: I don't think I can continue this conversation here without committing some offenses to my Guru-varga because they are not respected here. But if you would like to conversation offline, please dm me your email address.
PADA: There is no respect for Krishna to say He starts some souls with Him and some not, because He is a biased bigot with His children.
HS: Interesting how people can still believe that the Jiva-badha felt down from Goloka or Vaikuntas due to being envious of Krishna / of course as if indeed the Jiva-Bhada ever was at the presence of Radha Krishna....
PH: If we never knew Kṛṣṇa before, then bhakti is practically the Stockholm Syndrome.
HS: Do you believe the Jivatma felt from Vaikunta ?
PADA: Interesting that the Gaudiya Matha said that the jeevas came from Maha vishnu, which means they started out as conditioned souls. That is somewhat as the Vatican teaches, some souls start with God, others (us poor slubs) do not start out with God. Fortunately, I am no longer following the teachings of the Vatican. Yes, all kinds of people were here with Krishna at the time of the Kurushetra war, and they tried to kill Him. Just because someone is "here with Krishna" does not guarantee he will be His sevaka.
HS: Whenever a Jiva takes part in Krishna Lila does not necessarily means it's a Jiva Mukta / no 90% of cases those are Jiva-badha in evolutionary process getting closer and closer to Krishna. Technically no Jivatma can fall from Vaikunta unless that is a plan already in place like for example Jay and Vijay who were "cursed" by Brahma Kumaris to fulfill the purpose of Krishna Lila.
PADA: Yes, as we said already, the idea that Krishna starts our some souls with Him and some not is -- the teachings of the Vatican. Srila Prabhupada said we have to go back home "BACK to Godhead," and when his God brothers said this is wrong, we were never there with Godhead, Srila Prabhupada said they do not know we were once with Krishna because they are tinged with mayavada.
Srila Prabhupada writes in SB 3.12.3: “The Lord first of all tries to protect him from the trap, but when the living entity persists on gliding down to hell, the Lord helps him to forget his real position to give the chance to see if he is happy by misusing his independence.”
"Question Dr. John Mize : the soul somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride…why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing.
Prabhupada: That is his independence... They committed offense… That was their fault... So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence.
Dr. John Mize: Are more souls falling all the time?
Prabhupada: Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence...Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal… in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down…. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fallen down, that is not independence. That is force." (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, June 23, 1975)
And he states that the soul doesn’t fall originally from the brahmayjoti.
”Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krishna… in His lila or sport.” (SPL, 1973)
HS: That expression BTG Srila Prabhupada used because it was appealing to those western followers who came from traditions that believe in the fall of souls and angels from paradise. It has nothing to do with what the Vedic texts explain.
SD: It's from the 4th canto with Puranjana and the city of 9 gates . . but the whole thing is highly allegorical to begin with. It's actually one of the few times when Srila Prabhupada and the other commentators are very clear: yep, this is an allegory.
PADA: Back to Godhead was a phrase used by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the 1920s and it was used by Srila Prabhupada in his 1940s writings, including his original Back to Godhead magazine. The idea that we were never with God is the teachings of the Vatican, this is the Western idea.
“The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence…
Yep, we were connected previously ... correct.
HS: Of course with all due respect and appreciation for Srila Prabhupada but when saying we do have little independence therefore we can choose to COME BACK to the material world ? Does it even make sense ?
PADA: Yes, we are living beings, thus we are not mechanical robots. Yes we can always choose to love Krishna, or not love Krishna, because we are living beings. A robot cannot choose, but we are not a robot. So if we choose to love someone, we can also choose not to ...
HS: There is something really out of context / remember what scripture says after reaching Vaikunta and enjoying spiritual relationship with Krishna / how in heaven it would even occur to a sanely mind to think about going back to suffering life after life / after escaping from Samsara ??? Does Srila Prabhupada actually do quote verses from scripture to backup what he saying ? It seems more likely he is adapting the teaching for a particular audience.
I am not a pandit but I have never ever read anywhere in the Vedas that remotely suggests we originally came from the Vaikuntas.
PADA: This is the first problem, you think that when we have no choice then we are sane, nope, then we are robots.
HS: No no my friend that is not the case at all / please provide scriptural evidence to support your claim.
PADA: Why do you think the Vatican idea is correct? We just provided shastra: We had a connection previously. You gave up my company. This is from shastra. Everything a pure devotee says is shastra. What is shastra, if it is not the speaking of the Lord and His pure devotees. The speaking of pure devotees is not shastra? Then what is shastra? Ooops, the Vatican? That is shastra? Some souls start with God, some do not, that is what the Vatican says. I grew up hearing that. ys pd
HS: PADA if you grew up hearing that well well well / maybe it's time for to grow up listening Srila Rupa Gosvami :
The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)
PADA: That is what Narayan Maharaja people told me, the Nitya Baddha were always conditioned souls Nitya -- forever. So God places some souls in heaven forever, and some in hell forever. Got it! And that is your idea of a loving God, He puts some of His children in hell, Nitya, forever?
The NM idea is even worse than the Christians idea, at least they don't think we have already been in hell forever. Yes, I heard that already, God is such a mean minded person He places some of His children in heaven forever, and some in Hell forever, He is cruel by placing many of His children in jail forever -- for not even doing any crime. Why does God place some of His children in jail forever, for no reason? Again, why would I adopt the Vatican siddhanta?
HS: First of all it's not SNM teachings its common knowledge between Sadhu / Guru and Shastra / second where Prabhupada or scripture says Tatashta Shakti is hell .... ? Hell comes as a result of sinful activity performed exclusively by the Jivatma / as you know Paramatma within the heart acts as a witness not as a doer.
PADA: So its common knowledge that God makes some of His children at their original state into Nitya baddhas -- condemned to conditioned life (hell) from birth? Why does God give some of His children a room in His house, and other children a room in Hell? And why do the NM people keep telling me that is how God operates? The tatastha shakti is us, the jeevas, the jeevas can move from one place or the other, we are the tatastha shakti. We do not originate in choice, choice is a verb, a place is a noun. This makes no sense? We originate in "moving"? Why does NM folks say some of us are in Hell -- Nitya baddha, without ever being with Krishna, while others are with Krishna, thus God is not equal to His children, that is the question they never answer?
HS: "There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha.
Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas. "
Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London
PADA: They do not know WHEN they came in contact with the material world? Fine. But they CAN know HOW that happened. And NM says the Nitya Baddha were never with Krishna, so there are two classes of souls, the chosen people who start out with Krishna, and the non-chosen lesser class children. Why does NM teach Vatican ideas? No, even a mundane man gives all of his children an equal status from the start? God is less than a mundane man, He cannot be equal with His children? And why would God place hundreds of trillions of His baby children in hell, right at their original start? That means NM thinks God is an evil tyrant.
HS: Read above and you see Srila Prabhupada teaching the same understanding.
PADA: No, Srila Prabhupada does not teach that some souls are special chosen ones, to be with God, and some are not? That is false. He says we ALL have to go back to Krishna because we ALL START there, as do ALL the children. He has never taught this "special chosen sector of children" idea?
HS: No he doesn't / you are saying the chosen souls. And no no Jiva-badha STARTS HERE / Srila Prabhupada clear explains above there are TWO TYPES OF SOULS and all the way up from Lord Brahma down to the insignificant ant / we are all Jiva-badha NOT Nitya Siddhas
Jiva-badha are already part of material manifestation / not part of the eternal spiritual world. Thus Nitya baddha until achieving liberation which is always available by the merciful Lord and His servants. The term eternal conditioned applies to the Jiva-badha exclusively because nobody knows when we as Jivas first manifested here or when the entire material manifestation began and that is due to the nature of the Lord which is eternal.
PADA: No one knows what happened? God just does things willy nilly with no explanation? God just drops some people over here with Him, some people over there without Him, no explanation can be known. God just does everything randomly. Same as the --- Vatican idea? No, there is a cause for the fall down of the jeevas, and it can be known, and it has to be known in order to reverse the process and go back.
HS: Well if you understand the word eternal which applies to the Lord then you can understand why its impossible to determine a time-frame when His material creation was manifested or when precisely everything started. One thing for sure Prabhupada makes very clear Jiva-badha are those within the material creation NOT those from His spiritual ( invisible ) creation.
PADA: God does not toss His children willy nilly randomly into hellish situations for no reason AT ANY TIME. Nor would God place His children in Nitya hell forever -- when they were just at their originating baby stages point AT ANY TIME. Nor would we be going back to Godhead unless we were once there. Yes, the Nitya Baddha are people are the people who were once WITH KRISHNA, but became envious of Krishna, and thus FELL down.
We did not fall for no reason. There is a reason for things because God is INTELLIGENT, He does not act randomly. You keep talking about how we cannot understand the TIME FRAME, that is fine, I am talking about the cause -- whatever time that took place is not the question.
HS: You have to keep in mind that within the material creation everything is temporary so the term Nitya Baddha is just to illustrate the unknown or uncertainty of how long a Jivatma might stays in the material world. However as you should know we are all here temporarily until Lord's grace or pure devotee comes in our way.
PADA: I have never argued whether or not the exact time we fell is important or not important, what is important is that we fell for a reason. And if the material world is temporary as YOU JUST SAID, then we were not here Nitya Baddha, forever. You are arguing with yourself. We came here at a certain point, that means we were not here always as Nitya Baddha, forever. We came to the temporary world from the permanent world, that is the right idea. We did not eternally live in the temporary world, which makes your argument null and void.
HS: And nope we were NEVER with the Lord / otherwise we would not tolerate to be here separated from Him. We do not know that BLISSFUL Bhava to be with HIM / therefore we are continuously under the influence of illusion.
PADA: OK. So Narayana Maharaja thinks we fell here because God gives some of the children a nice home with Him, and some a place in hell without Him. Yep, Vatican.
HS: You are under illusion / don't worry it's normal for someone who never met the Lord.
PADA: But in Krishna's leela in the Krishna book, all sorts of people meet the Lord, and then they want to kill Him, like Kamsa. Just because someone is with Krishna does not mean he will not be envious of Krishna? So you simply confirmed that NM is preaching exactly what the Vatican preaches, told ya!
NM thinks God is the cause of the illusion of the fallen souls, because they were not originated with God. God creates souls who are destined for illusion and hell. Anyone who is with Krishna will never fall away from Him, that makes no sense when so many people who were with Krishna wanted to fight with Him, and even -- kill Him.
HS: See how much illusion ? I told you already this is NOT SNM teachings its common knowledge among Sadhu Guru and Shastra.
PADA: Its common knowledge that none of the people who were here with Krishna were fighting with Him -- and maybe trying to kill Him, because they were "with the Lord"? No, simply being with Krishna does not guarantee freedom from envy of Krishna, otherwise the whole pastimes of Krishna book are false?
And! Its common knowledge that God creates some souls with Him, and creates some souls in hell without Him? Yes, its the common Vatican idea. And if simply being with Krishna means we are nitya surrendered to Him eternally, why are people fighting Krishna when they are here with Him in the Krishna stories?
HS: Hell is your understanding / NOT the understanding of Tatashta Shakti. BTW stop calling God's creation a hell / IT'S NOT
PADA: Forgetting Krishna is hell according to Srila Bhaktivinode. Who says that is not hell? Why does NM say God puts some souls with Him, and some not with Him, thus God creates suffering? Anywhere that people are forgetful of Krishna is hellish, that is what Srila Bhaktivinode says.
HS: I don't know what SNM says whatever that is his advanced realizations.
What I know is that Krishna manifested this and the spiritual world for HIS PLEASURE / if you understand that you are half way up towards Vaikuntas or Goloka if you will.
PADA: Anyway, this is good. When we said NM is making God to be worse than an ordinary man, we were right. An ordinary man gives ALL the children an equal start, because he loves ALL the children equally. God is not advanced enough to be equal with all of His children ... And as such, the children were not originally divided, as the Vatican teaches. Originally they were all KRISHNA conscious living beings. Some fell LATER on.
Of course Narayan Maharaja also helped Satsvarupa write the "Guru Reform Notebook" starting in 1984, which lead to the 1986 GBC "guru voting" system. And then NM was hanging out with the "voted in" gurus like Indradyumna, Sivarama and others. Guru voting, and Vatican Pope voting. More Vatican stuff. It never ends. ys pd
HS: You mentioned SNM over one 100 times or more / geee man / you seems very knowledgeable of him / where does SNM say that ? The entire paragraph please.
PADA: NM said that Sridhara Maharaja is correct (we originated in brahmajyoti). Not too worried, you are also parroting NM and giving me his same Vatican jeeva tattva. And NM's guru voting process that he helped the GBC with is -- Vatican's Pope voting tattva.
HS: Here is another great Vaishnava from Gaudiya lineage :
Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord."
PADA: There is tons of evidence NM was associated with the GBC guru party, and this can be found in many documents on their own sites. He is seen in a photo hugging Kirtanananda and so many things like that. He invited me to his ashram to discuss all this, then avoided me and sat in his room and left me sitting for 10 hours, then he sneaked out the back door and left the property. I am an eye witness to that because I was there. If you have never read the extensive connections to NM and the GBC gurus like Tamal, you really have not studied the issue at all. And if the GBC are gurus aka eternally liberated souls, why are they falling down left, right and center?
HS: You are changing the subject. Ok what about YOU purposely ignoring Srila Prabhupada instructions when he is saying there are two types of Jivas eternally liberated and eternally conditioned.... ????
PADA: No, I said you are taking things out of the context of many other statements, for example, Back to Godhead, return home, revive your dormant Krishna consciousness and many other quotes we provided already. For you to say that God places some of His children in the material world to suffer (eternally?) and die etc., means you follow the Vatican idea. I am not with that process anymore. No, the souls are not put in eternal hellish suffering when they start off, that would make God a Satanic person. Guru voting is another Vatican idea, its not changing the subject. ys pd
HS: The answer for this quote is that its common knowledge this chapter of the SB is based on allegory and has already been explained earlier that
>> It's from the 4th canto with Puranjana and the city of 9 gates . . but the whole thing is highly allegorical to begin with <<
PADA: And that is the whole problem, NM takes things out of context to "prove" the wrong thing. He wants to prove that the Vatican idea is correct. Its not. He wants to prove that the GBCs deviants are "sampradaya" gurus, they are not. He also enables the GBC to create a Vatican style guru voting system. Its bogus.
NM has endless amounts of time to talk to the GBC gurus, but he has not got five minutes to talk to us. He goes to hug and talk to the deviants posing as gurus, but he does not talk to us and hug us. He said we are ritvik poison, so he could enable goondas to come and kill us "poison offenders."
He enabled these murders thereby. And then he wants to lecture is that Back to Godhead is a bogus idea? He has no idea what Godhead is, or he would not enable sexual predators and deviants to be worshiped as the successors to God.
NM supported and enabled the GBC's child molester / devotee assassinating guru program of Tamal Krishna, and NM was hanging out in Dallas with Tamal. And then we had to sue the Tamal and NM "guru varga" for $400,000,000 in the same DALLAS for mass child abuse. Yes, this is the root of the problem, the bad guys and their enablers, shiksha guru advisors, assistants, rasika teachers etc., they are also co-opted to blame as well.
When one of my associates met with NM in Dallas to say -- Tamal is not an acharya, NM was literally spitting mad at my associate, he was getting NM's spit on his face as NM was yelling at him. NM defended the molester's guru program, and that is PLENTY evidenced. And no wonder NM does not like Back to Godhead, he wanted to send people back to the molester messiah's "guru varga" program so he can keep people trapped in the material world. ys pd
HS Srila Prabhupada writes :
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)
[PADA: Narayan Maharaja's "eternally nitya siddha" acharyas are falling down left, right and center? Of course that was one of my questions, what exactly is a child molester "guru varga." Hah hah, no wonder NM avoided me. I also had a copy of the poison tape with me, and he said I was poison for promoting that issue, but he did not want to see me or hear the tape after he invited me to his ashram. He avoided me and stayed hiding in his room ...
Anyway! That is jeeva tattva. The shakti avesha jeeva acharyas cannot fall down because they are covered with Krishna's shakti, and these GBC guru jeeva acharyas who are covered with NM's shakti are falling into -- illicit sex with men, women and children. The nature of the shakti avesha jeeva is, he cannot fail because he is empowered direct from Krishna, and the nature of the jeeva acharyas empowered by NM's endorsing is, a fall down festival.
NM wanted people to worship his acharya fall down festival and he said my idea of worship of the bona fide acharya is bogus. This is jeeva tattva, the shakti avesha acharyas are not falling, the NM avesha acharyas are falling down left, right and center. He has no idea what is shakti avesha and what is not. Worse, he advertises fallen as shakti avesha jeevas. This is Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta we are discussing here. Why would anyone endorse falling people into supposed shakti avesha acharyas? And why don't you folks know that they are different categories?
So the eternal acharyas of NM are considered as associates of Krishna, which is why NM's acharyas are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children? This is sahajiya vada on steroids.]
HS: No no no that is NOT what Prabhupada is saying. You are fabricating stories out of your psychedelic mind. And know nothing absolutely nothing about Jiva tattva.
PADA: Liberated souls never fall down, unless they are shakti avesha aka acharyas, in which case they are falling down left, right and center. Are you aware that this is an insult to the acharyas? Yes, this is jeeva tattva, the shakti avesha acharya jeevas do not fall … The pure jeevas never fail, unless they are directly NM's shakti avesha empowered acharyas, then they fail left, right and center? No wonder NM avoided me!
Thus NM is saying (A) pure devotees never fail unless (B) they are shakti avesha acharyas, then they will fail left, right and center? So the acharys are (A) nitya Mukta and therefore they behave like (B) nitya baddha? Why is NM saying these things?
HS: F*ck that sh*t man stop talking about SNM / get real Prabhupada says Nitya Baddha and Nitya Siddha. You have to face this fact instead of blaming others trying to accommodate your personal misunderstanding.
PADA: So you are arguing with your own shadow? Pure devotee acharyas never fall down, because they are directly empowered by Krishna's "shakti avesha" (dressed with God's power)." Ooops, unless they are members of NM's "guru varga," then NM's pure devotee acharyas are falling down left, right and center.
That is NM's understanding and its what NM was preaching. So as soon as I am in the eternal shakti avesha protection of Krishna, I will be falling down into illicit sex with men, women and children --- left, right and center. What kind of preaching is Narayan Maharaja giving us here?
I am asking how pure devotee acharyas can be both shakti avesha, and simultaneously falling down left, right and center. That is what NM said, they are gurus, they are guru varga, and then -- his acharyas are -- falling. Where does Srila Prabhupada, or any other acharya, say that the guru varga is full of debauchees, or supporters of debauchee guru programs like NM? And since the first wave of NM's acharyas are falling, how can the fallen vote in more pure acharyas?
Please cite chapter and verse shastra for a change? This is not my personal idea, Srila Prabhupada says anyone who says gurus are deviants is an offender. And Krishna says the same thing, He casts false preachers down. And as for saying that Back to Godhead is false, well what does it matter if worship of debauchees as guru varga is the standard, no one can get to the higher plane in any case.
HS: No no no that is not what SNM saying THAT is exactly what Prabhupada says pure devotees do come down sometimes / GET REAL.
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)
PADA: The nitya siddha acharyas never fall down, but NM's guru varga is falling down left, right and center. An illicit sex guru varga has no idea what is an acharya, for starters, never mind finer details like what is Back to Godhead for the ordinary jeevas. You also just defied what NM says, he says the gurus are Nitya siddhas, and the GBC are part of what he says are gurus, and they are clearly Nitya Baddha still. How can a person be both Nitya Siddha and Nitya Baddha at the same time? No wonder NM would not speak with me!
HS: Ok let's put this way / based on what you said above / if you do not show a prove that SNM says what you wrote above I will have no other choice but to consider you a delusional liar ! How about that ? Prove what you just said above or else you are a liar.
PADA: NM was with the GBC gurus the whole time? NM was advertised by various GBC as their rasika advisor. NM was fighting with our people who disagreed the GBC are gurus? NM helped Satsvarupa write "The Guru Reform Notebook." NM was in a photo hugging Kirtanananda. NM said we (Prabhupadanugas) are not in the guru varga (because we do not worship pedophiles)? He told Jayadvaita that the GBC can be worshiped as rati keli siddha, etc. etc. etc.
You mean the followers NM have no idea he was promoting the GBC gurus? Sheesh! NM was with the GBC and he said our idea is bogus and he said that the whole time? He was not with the GBC gurus and not promoting them? That is called re-writing history. He told Jayadvaita they can be worshiped as rati keli.
NM was in Dallas and he did not know Tamal was promoting the GBC as gurus? When everyone else in the universe knew that, except, NM?
Wow, so NM had no idea the GBC were promoted as rati keli gurus never mind he was with them the whole while? Never mind his people said this is the guru varga, and his people still say they are the guru varga. Rati keli is not nitya siddha? That means NM does not even know the basic points of the religion?
Rati keli devotees are illicit sex, and not nitya siddhas? Rati keli gurus are not in the guru varga? What are they in then? NM and his followers often used the term guru varga, they used it then and they still use it now.
And Tamal and his pals were gurus .. and that is what NM promoted. And that is why there are many conversations with Tamal and NM on their sites ... so NM was with the GBC the while time, but he did not know they are being promoted as rati keli siddha gurus? Everyone else knows that except NM?
NM people used the term guru varga all the time, and still do. NM knew the GBC were promoting themselves as gurus (of the guru varga). NM knew I was promoting the poison issue and he said I was a deviant for that, so he invited me to come over and discuss and explain it, but he lied, he never wanted to listen to the tape I brought with me and he sneaked off the property. Many discussions with the NM and GBC party are found on their sites, in addition to photos of NM with GBC people like Tamal.
NM told Jayadvaita that the GBC will be worshiped as rati keli, and he knew they were being worshiped that way because he was with them all the time, and so on and so on. Anyway good, NM says that God starts out hundreds of trillions of His children in the material world in forgetfulness of Krishna, because He wants His children to suffer and die. That is what we thought he was saying.
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