Sunday, September 17, 2017

Hanuman (Croatia) Let's Remove The Guru Parampara List?

Hanuman das (Croatia)

Bhagavad Gita's guru list: no longer needed?

[PADA: Let's start with this first of all, here is what really happened historically: Most of these people like Rocana / Ajit Krishna / Torben / Hanuman et al. were formerly big promoters of the GBC's and their bogus living guru's idea. Then along came us (the ritviks) and we smashed and spoiled their bogus "living guru's" party by getting their program busted by: The FBI, Federal Marshals, Various police agencies, Federal Courts, Dallas courts, and had their gurus exposed in the mass public media etc. 

Actually, we are still working with some news media folks on some of these issues right now as we speak. 

Then we had their gurus sued for $400,000,000; Then we sued their gurus for changing the books; Then we said, ok your gurus apparently poisoned Srila Prabhupada. And now -- they just cannot admit defeat? They are still promoting their living guru idea, but self-evidently very upset we took their program to task?   

Anyway! Lets get straight to Hanuman's brand new complaint against Srila Prabhupada: the Bhagavad Gita guru's list must be removed! 

Hanuman das says (see below): Guru list should be abolished.

Srila Prabhupada gives us the "guru list" of the predecessor gurus in his parampara, either in the introduction to his Bhagavad or in other places. Hanuman das (Croatia) now says we no longer need this list, we can toss out the Bhagavad Gita guru (lineage) list because Hanuman says -- "no more guru lists." So we no longer need to follow the "list of acharyas," given by the acharya himself? Hanuman mysteriously knows that the list is -- no longer valid or needed? We are going to have a religion which does not list its saints, acharyas and gurus? Really?

How can we identify who is a bona fide guru, what is the actual parampara etc, -- if there is no "guru list" of participants for us to reference? Our other living guru pal Torben says basically the same thing, he does not want to "single out" who is bad (like Indradyumna), or who is bona fide in his guru line. OK so how can anyone else tell what his line is, or is not? We are going to preach to the public, we have no list of our chain of gurus and thus no system of authority from Krishna?  

Since their bogus previous "guru list" was full of so many defects, now we should have no list at all? We should NOW tell new people to throw away the list of gurus -- even though its given by the acharya. And the new people -- or anyone else -- can invent their own concocted list? How can anyone know who is a bona fide representative of the religion, and who is not, if there is no "list of members" of the bona fide chain? 

That would mean anyone and everyone can claim to be members of the chain, because now there will be no system of keep the list in order? Is this not the problem we have already with the GBC, they do not pay attention to who is and who is not in their guru list? Krishna Himself lists some of the people He spoke to previous to Arjuna, Krishna does not need to bother to list "who is who" either? The Vedas are full of examples of people following various guru lines, and taking great care to identify the members of their line. This is no longer required? The list of gurus is no longer bona fide? Why?   

Then there will be anarchy if there is no guru list, because for starters anyone who wants to claim they are on the list can do so with no checks and balances. Where does Srila Prabhupada say, we should allow anyone and everyone to claim they are members of the parampara, and moreover we must get rid of his existing guru list? 

In short: Where does Srila Prabhupada say we can remove his guru list? Where is the authority to do this? Where in fact does any acharya say we no longer need to adhere to their Gaudiya Vaishnava guru list? 

Rocana says basically the same thing, we cannot restrict anyone who wants to be guru. So there will be an open ended free for all, anyone who wants to declare they are acharyas can just say they are, and de facto add their name to the list (like a number of GBC gurus has done)? Sorry, this makes no sense, we need to follow Srila Prabhupada, and the first thing we need to do is, remove his guru list from everywhere? 

Where does he say this should be done? 

And if its a "free for all" of anarchy, i.e. there is no system to identify who is a bona fide representative or not, why is this much different from what the GBC does already? Amazing, the first thing we need to do to follow Srila Prabhupada is -- get rid of his parampara list?  

And worse, this allows anyone to claim to be on the list, its open ended for any Tom, Dick, Harry, and / or messiah wanna-be coming down the pike to add their own names willy nilly? OK that is basically what the GBC has done already, they added people willy nilly to their list of gurus? We do not know by now, this is a failure, we no longer need to list only bona fide persons, we can allow neophytes and others to be gurus -- who might be bogus? If anything, we should have learned by now to protect the list from dubious out croppings.]  


In this video, I will prove beyond reasonable doubt that rtviks are trying to kill Prabhupada if 4 major ways:

First is that they are trying to portrait Prabhupada as mundane crazy person.
Second is that rtviks are presenting Prabhupada as a deviant from the vaisnava siddhanta.

Third way the rtviks are killing Prabhupada is that they are claiming that he is not a guru. And fourth way they are trying to kill him is to portrait him as an ordinary person who is not empowered by Krishna.

In order to be rtvik, you have to insult Prabhupada is those 4 ways. Continue watching this video to see the explanation. Rtvik theory consequnce: 1. Prabhupada is crazy

You are probably wandering how rtvik philosophy makes Prabhupada look as a crazy, mundane person. Let’s give a definition first: Mundane, crazy person is someone who changes his views all the time. Prabhupada preached correct parampara philosophy which is recorded in his books, letters, lectures and conversations. What is a correct parampara philosophy?

Mohsin Hassan: Yeah, the tenth. After you, is it any decision has been made who will take over? Prabhupāda: Yes. All of them will take over. These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. 
Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. 

Mohsin Hassan: How many swamis do you initiated, American? I’m speaking just on… Prabhupāda: About ten. Mohsin Hassan: You have ten swamis. And outside of swamis, what’s the lower… Prabhupāda: Now, they’re competent. They can, not only the swamis, even the gṛhasthas, they are called dāsa adhikārī, and brahmacārīs, everyone can, whoever is initiated, he is competent to make disciples. But as a matter of etiquette they do not do so in the presence of their spiritual master. This is the etiquette. Otherwise, they are competent. They can make disciples and spread. (Room Conversation – July 18, 1971, Detroit)

[PADA: OK, and this is the whole problem, Hanuman cannot name even one person whom he thinks is competent to make his own disciples? Nor does he explain how we neophytes can absorb sins like Jesus and be diksha gurus, when Srila Prabhupada says we neophytes who act as diksha gurus will be overwhelmed by taking sins? 

And the GBC's gurus are famous for falling down, which even their followers sometimes say is -- from taking sins. We need to add more people to "the list" of fallen guru wanna-bes, and tell neophytes to take sins and imitate Jesus? Why does Hanuman think any neophyte can take the post of another Jesus, and absorb sins? 

Worse, we cannot worship Srila Prabhupada, we need to worship someone else, but -- no one else is named? So its better to worship no one than to worship Srila Prabhupada? Or worse, we should encourage neophytes to act as diksha gurus, so they will absorb sins, make pretend they are another Jesus, and then they often get sick, fall down and die prematurely from taking sins -- after Srila Prabhupada told us many times we neophytes are not authorized to absorb sins? Where does Srila Prabhupada say that we neophytes can be diksha gurus and absorb sins, and why does Hanuman never present this evidence? OK there is none ... the evidence is just the opposite, neophytes will get HIGHLY contaminated by taking sins and FAIL, and they ARE already failing left, right and center.]

This conclusion is proper according to the history of our sampradaya and all the teachings of previous acaryas. But rtviks claim that Prabhupada changed his mind, and in the last months of his presence on earth, make himself the only guru even after he leaves this world. Question is, why Prabhupada preached correct parampara philosophy and then suddenly changed his mind, you could have preached this nonsense from the very begining. But he didn’t.

[PADA: In 1977 he changed his mind, he said suspend sannyasa. Of course he could change anything he wanted to, especially if the previous system was causing problems? So the people he said are not fit for sannyasa in 1977, are fit to be parampara gurus in 1978?]

So, rtviks portrait Prabhupada as somebody who is changing is mind after preaching the opposite thing during the whole ISKCON history.

[PADA: Srila Prabhupada never named anyone as a successor? He also said among my God brothers no one is qualified to be acharya, so do not make false acharyas like my 1936 God brothers did. We cannot simply rubber stamp people as gurus, its not the system. He never implemented a successor guru system for his disciples?] 

But Prabhupada was not crazy, and Prabhupada was not changing his opinions constantly like mundane persons.

Rtvik theory consequence: 

2. Prabhupada is deviant from the vaisnava siddhantha

[PADA: And that is the siddhanta, only a pure devotee can be the acharya, this is stated many times by Srila Prabhupada. Therefore no one can add their name to the list of acharyas without authority from Krishna.]

Prabhupada always followed sastra and his own guru, Bhakti siddhantha Sasvati.

[PADA: And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta also said the same thing, make a Governing Body and not false diksha gurus.]

And he followed them perfectly. He never deviated from the instructions of previous acaryas. And therefore Prabhupada is so glorious, because he upheld proper conclusions and proper transcendental knowledge. Many people suggested to Prabhupada that he should relax 4th regulative principle a little bit, but he didn’t.

[PADA: So we should relax the standards for acharyas now, to include neophytes? We have not seen yet that this does not work? Or promote an acharya who does not have any existence or name? Or what?]

But, if you are rtvik, you have to believe without any evidence, that Prabhupada introduced zombie guru nonsense which we don’t find anywhere in any scripture or in any vaisnava sampradaya.

[PADA: But Hanuman is the person who is promoting a ghost or zombie guru? His guru has no name, no address, no physical evidence of existing anywhere? We need to worship a phantom zombie, and not worship the pure devotee?]

Person who introduces dead guru tattva or any other nonsense is actually deviant from the proper vaisnava siddhanta. So, by claiming that Prabhupada introduces himself as a guru who will initiate although not physically present, rtviks in fact claim that Prabhupada is deviant person.

Rtvik theory consequence: 3. Prabhupada is not guru

Crown jewel argument by rtviks is that Prabhupada never named is successor gurus, Prabhupada never named disciples who will continue giving diksa and that is true.

[PADA: And neither can Hanuman name any other person who is the guru now? He only says Srila Prabhupada is not the guru? Hanuman can only identify who is not his guru, but he does not know -- who is? Srila Prabhupada is NOT my guru, ok fine, then who is? Nobody!]

Rtviks claim that only if guru directly tells you that you are next guru or he writes down list of names, then you can become guru. And then they say, Prabhupada never told anybody to become next diksa guru.

[PADA: That is true, who did he say would be the next guru?]

Additionally, rtviks claim that Prabhupada gave the FINAL ORDER, in which he named rtviks and that system should continue after he dies. So, this is really their crown argument, which is based on ignorance.

Now first we should give background of so called FINAL ORDER. This order was given because Prabhupada was sick and couldn’t travel, and list of his disciples waiting for initiation kept growing more and more. In order to solve that issue, Prabhupada established such a system that his senior disciples can give beads to disciples, which is very practical solution.

Now, I will give you example how stupid FINAL ORDER theory really is. Now imagine that I am a guru, and I tell my disciples I have to drink a lot of lemonade to cure myself. And I make a written order that all disciples should bring me lemons so that a lemonade can be made for me.

After a few weeks, I leave this world, and disciples without reading any of my books say, the only way to go back to spiritual world is to drink lemonade. We will not have anymore gurus and disciples, we will just drink lemonade, that is Hanuman’s final order. Is that reasonable? No, that’s just means you are stupid.

[PADA: But you also do not name any other guru yourself?]

Now, for discussion sake, let’s say that rtviks are right, that you can’t become a guru unless you have direct order by your own guru. So, you guru should come to you and say “After I die, you can start initiating disciples.” That is what rtviks are preaching, you can not become guru unless directly ordered by your own guru. By giving such stupid statement, rtviks actually claim that Prabhupada is not guru.

[PADA: OK well Srila Prabhupada says Krishna directs a PURE person to be guru by being seated in the heart of the PURE guru, the internal chaitya guru manifests externally as the representative of Krishna. So yes, without Krishna giving internal dictation to the guru, who else will? 

Fact: pure devotees get their orders to be guru or anything else from Krishna, or from the external representative of Krishna -- to be guru. Of course! Hanuman says a person can be guru, with no order from these higher authority? That is the whole problem.]

Rtvik theory consequence: 4. Prabhupada is not empowered

Prabhupada was hoping to make at least one pure devotee, and rtviks claim that he couldn’t make any pure devotees who would continue parampara and therefore he decided to put himself as the only guru even after he dies.

[PADA: OK and who is the current pure devotee? Hanuman says we Prabhupada devotees are bogus for offering our bhogha, disciples and everything to Srila Prabhupada, ok so who should we offer to instead? We never said a person could not be empowered, we said Hanuman never tells us who that is?]

Prabhupāda: I don’t make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I never made that. Even if I don’t get any disciples, I’ll be satisfied. But I can’t make any compromise like these rascals. I cannot make. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tārā sahasrasaḥ. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don’t want many stars. That was my Guru Mahārāja’s principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. Morning Walk, March 23, 1974, Bombay)

Prabhupada was hoping to make one pure devotee, and rtviks claim that he couldn’t make any pure devotees who would continue parampara, therefore they are very much eager to attack current ISKCON gurus. If no ISKCON guru is bonafide, then they hope they people will accept rtvik system.

But as I already explained, rtvik system is philosophically flawed, and only way for rtviks to win is to produce better gurus than ISKCON has. But they are not doing that, therefore they are hypocrites.

[PADA: Wow! Hanuman thinks gurus are "produced," something like a car factory "makes cars." Sorry! We do not produce pure devotees, a pure devotee is a person who is in direct contact with God. He is not "produced" by us conditioned souls, he is an internally self-realized soul. We cannot "produce" purity, it either exists by internal purity due to connection to GOD, or it does not. We can "produce" connection to God, like we produce plastic bottles in a factory? Nope! 

This is totally foolish, we are going to "produce" pure devotees, like a factory produces cars, bottles and so on? This is a mundane idea of guru, he is not produced by us, much less us fallen neophytes, he is produced by Krishna. Guru is internally self-realized, and then he is DIRECTLY empowered by Krishna, saksat hari tvena, he is not "produced" by us neophytes speculating on these issues. If its so easy to produce pure devotees, why hasn't Hanuman made them himself?]  


Everybody is born as a fool.

Nobody doesn’t want to submit.

Rtviks start initiating disciples.

Guru list should be abolished.

[PADA: Sum up!

1) Srila Prabhupada's Gita guru list needs to be abolished, no more guru lists. We need to take out all the lists of gurus and their parampara systems made in the Gita / Chaitanya Charitamrtas etc. by Srila Prabhupada? What!

2) Ritviks need to take the post of diksha guru, absorb sins, and get sick, fall down and die. There is not a big enough pile of dead bodies from this deviation already? Thanks a lot! 

3) Only Krishna can produce a pure devotee, but us neophytes can do the same job as Krishna, and start "producing" pure devotees? A conditioned person cannot even produce a flea, never mind start producing pure devotees?

4) We should worship a non-existing phantom guru, a ghost or a zombie.

5) We should offer bhogha to -- apparently, nobody at all? No one is named?

6) Srila Prabhupada said his India born scholarly God brothers are not qualified to be acharyas, but the mleccha class will be now?

7) Hanuman is number one at criticizing his own living gurus?

8) Hanuman is clearly a mayavada, he does not worship anyone, he says we cannot worship the pure devotee, we should instead worship a person who has no identity, a zombie phantom. 

9) Yes, neophyte devotees who are not YET pure can act as representatives of the acharya, as preachers or priests aka ritviks. Why should we telescope the title of pure devotee upon these neophytes?

10) Anyway, these folks like Rocana / Torben / Ajit / Hanuman / etc. they have no living guru at all, and that is why they cannot produce realistic programs, temples, books, devotees or anything else of substance. They cannot produce followers because there is no one in their program to promote as their factual acharya. 

So they will never amount to anything, meanwhile our Prabhupadanuga devotees are making programs, temples, books, devotees and so forth, because at least we can identify the person whom we all worship as our acharya. 

Anyway good idea, do not worship the GBC gurus, do not worship Prabhupada either, and that leaves us with -- we have to worship you, Mr. Hanuman? He is our newly self-appointed leader? Will this fly? You tell us! Yes, Srila Prabhupada says if you do not name your guru, you are making yourself the guru. Hanuman does not name any guru, because he thinks it is he -- himself. Another GBC guru wanna-be. He never tells us who to surrender to, because he wants us to surrender to him, and this is the same tricks used by Tamal and co. We are on to these tricks by now!

ys pd] 


  1. Right, the GBC changed the guru list, and now Hanuman wants to abolish the guru list. Yet! Neither of them has authority to make or remove the list, i.e. control the guru list?

    They are not the persons who control the guru list, its created by Krishna and not these folks. Krishna says the acharyas are a manifestation of My mercy, that is the process for how the acharyas are "manufactured," they are "made" by Krishna and not any of us.

    Right, Hanuman wants to rubber stamp a bunch of people as acharyas, same disease as the GBC. Yet, he is such a neophyte, he cannot even identify who to offer bhogha and disciples to? Even our newest bhakta knows the answer this this issue? Our newest bhaktas know who the bhogha and disciples are offered to, Hanuman could be defeated by any ten year old child in our process.

    Right, "no list" at all means, any fool can say he is acharya, there is no check and balances at all, its an acharya rubber stamp party with no restrictions. This is worse than the GBC, at least they pretend to restrict their list, Hanuman wants total anarchy, no list, anyone can declare they are the next acharya without any scrutiny. This is worse than GBC! ys pd

    ys pd

  2. Srila Prabhupada said we needed the guru list. Now Hanuman says we do not need the guru list, and neither does the GBC need the proper list. Same disease. Madhava Dasa

  3. Yes this is basically what Kirtanananda said, we cannot worship the other GBC's gurus as they are bogus, we also cannot worship Prabhupada because that is the Christian idea.

    This is the way forward?

    Yes we asked Hanuman, who do we offer bhogha to the deity via --
    what guru? He is baffled. Where does Srila Prabhupada say, henceforward, never mind making bhogha offerings to the deity via the acharya? Hanuman is speculating, Srila Prabhupada never said we have to stop deity pooja by offering bhogha to the acharya.

    No, we offer bhogha, we offer new devotees, we offer everything to Krishna via the acharya, that is the system since millions of years. Hanuman basically says offering bhogha to the pure devotee is the Christian idea because they say grace to Jesus, so we should offer bhogha to -- no one at all? This makes no sense. Yes we asked him to clarify this, he never does. ys pd


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