INDEPENDENT PROGRAMS
WHITE MIDDLE CLASS EXCLUDED FROM ISKCON
Pinned by @NaradaDasUK
@NaradaDasUK
This short talk is also available on our Facebook page: https://fb.watch/GlJo-k5rg1/
@kanteya108: The reason so many Indians come to ISKCON is because it's the only organisation that answers questions about sanatan dharma ... I would go far as saying that ISKCON has saved santan dharma outside India and stopped 2nd / 3rd generation Hindu converting to Islam or Christianity.
I hope westerners come back. Srila prabhupada said that India has the spiritual knowledge however the European have first class administrative skills...if we worked together then it would be something formidable. I'm sorry that you faced discrimination.. at least you are still a devotee.
@PuggiTheGreat: Wokeness destroys everything. Kaliyug eh.
@blissfullife490: If this happened accidentally then pls forgive but repeatedly then such mistakes should be corrected in vaishnav manner .... otherwise law of karma... it works for true justice.
@CliveAdlam-yn8uz: Birmingham ISKCON, a Hindi Bindi club.
@danobrien9925: Most spiritual groups have issues. No group can stop your love of God, best to be free of being attached to any group or guru in my opinion. God bless everyone.
pada1008: Yep, Srila Prabhupada told us -- "I preached in India for 40 years with no result." "If the Hindus take over my movement it will become a business." "The Hindu men are all watching cricket while only the Indian women come to my programs." "The Hindus are a hodge podge." "India has an abundance of nothing because they are offending Krishna."
AND SO ON. He was not a fan of Hindus. My friend back East says, almost all of the Hindus who come to his temple EAT MEAT. And a number of them have been put onto the temple managerial board. The Westerners are being culled out. He said -- It is a Hindu business. ys pd
@CliveAdlam-yn8uz: Great Speech and so true. I relate to everything you say. What we going to do now? Respect.Srila Prabhupada.
@extemporaneous4545: Looks like the human species will always descend into tribalism based on skin colour. That is the default setting for this species.
@HanumansMace: Maybe, just maybe, it is more of a demographic + cultural bias. It has got nothing to do with being Eastern or Krishna. I hope the sense of discernment aka Viveka is functioning at full throttle to separate the grain from the chaff.
@HarryJagernauth: Hare Krishna prabhuji. As someone who has been around this movement since 1970, I have personally witnessed the decline of Srila Prabhupada’s movement in many ways, from the book changes to the many rules that Srila Prabhupada instructed being broken over time.
My body is not white but I am of Indian descent born outside of India. Like your good self I have walked away many years back, but continue to worship the Lord in my home on a daily basis and try my utmost to follow Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. I sincerely understand what your intention is in presenting this video.
My humble suggestion is that you continue your devotion and follow Guru, Sadhu and Shastra. Keep an open mind. We are fortunate that we have been given the opportunity in this lifetime
By the Mercy of Srila Prabhupada. Conversely I can also say that I have been shunned many times over the years by white devotees and Indian devotees as well because I was born in a British colony and cannot speak any Indian language, but so what. I never showed off my advanced graduate degrees or my military experience as a war veteran of the US.
We are not this body and it’s the core teachings of BG that we must follow if we want to transcend this place. Like my idol George Harrison wrote in “Living in the Material World” got to get out of this place by Lord Sri Krishna’s Grace, my salvation from this material world.
So keep on this transcendental journey. It’s the only way and, with an open mind.
Haribol
All Glories To Srila Prabhupada
@HareKrishna_pl: There seems to be quite a bit of frustration in the video and in the comments. Śrīla Prabhupāda said: “Indians are fortunate because they are born in a land where Kṛṣṇa consciousness is already there. Even a child in India chants ‘Rāma’ or ‘Kṛṣṇa.’ This is a great advantage.” Because of that cultural exposure, many people may naturally feel attracted to the temple, deities, the holy name, and kīrtan.
At the same time, it’s sad if anyone feels unwelcome in a temple. Krishna consciousness is meant for everyone. Śrīla Prabhupāda repeatedly said this movement is for the whole human society.
Maybe we should also ask ourselves honestly: how many people around us are we actively preaching to and bringing to the temple? If we’re not reaching out and sharing krishna consciousness, how will others come and become devotees?
Ultimately, Śrīla Prabhupāda taught us to rise above bodily identification and see everyone as a spirit soul, a servant of krishna.
Hare Krishna
@Storywryter: The more devotees speak up & out, the less alone those of us feel who have had to leave Iskcon’s dysfunction for practicing at home. Over the last 20 years Iskcon Temples have become all about catering to the Indian diaspora. It actually feels uncomfortable in the U.S. Temples. Instead of a house for the whole world, it’s become Hindu Temples only. Very sad. This is not what Prabhupada wanted. But… there is no turning back now. Iskcon has become an example of what not to do to help souls on a spiritual path. Sad.
@Nelson-z5g: Srila prapupada had run away from india, could not establish real honest movement of chaitanya. even osho who attracted white ppl to india, run away from india. indian are program for decades by rituals, corrupted priests, pundits who sing lullaby keep them asleep, keep donations going promising pious life. Western white ppl will eventually realize stay away from indian way practicing kk, follow real genuine way srila prapupada taught.
@maxbeaverwax9693: Unfortunately, it slowly but surely began in the early eigthies Prabhu. I fall at the lotus feet of Prabhupada and Lord Krishna eternally. I have my alter, Prabhupada’s original, unaltered books and I have The Lord but I don’t have Iskcon association any more… to be honest Prabhu, it works well for me.
The reality is, if you can’t get the answers you need from Prabhupada then, in my humble opinion, there are not many souls on the planet that can help… do you know any personality equal to or greater than Srila Prabhupada? …I don’t. We just stay strong in our faith, be guided by Prabhupada and keep moving forward.
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada and the devotees! Hare Krishna!!
@pauljohnson6019: Yes, we are pure Atman or spirit soul. We've been trapped in the material body since beginningless time.
@dervish108: It’s both sad and ironic considering most of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada appeared to have come from white middle class families.
@CliveAdlam-yn8uz: We were called" White Elephants". My family were, working class. Hare Krsna.
@johntrin: This is the problem with many eastern religious organizations in the west, they rely on donations, so wealthy donors end up being paid attention to more because the organization needs them to survive. Also, who has the time and resources to be able to regularly go on retreats?
Certainly not the working class. So many practitioners end up being older wealthy retired folk who are the opposite of what is preached in their scripture. Easy to be detached when you have no financial stressors.
@akumarmalai: Same in every religion.
@johntrin: @akumarmalai yeah if only religions had spiritual power that could transcend the need for the material, but that would require them to actually be true.
@Marvaey: I also noticed the Russian, east European influence, with poorly speaking devotees, giving classes without much meanings, my opinion is that those deceiving a group, harm the group, but they lose their soul, sad to say, thanks for sharing, Hare Krsna.
@wellwisher7778: Yeah, I would say it's wrong for persons of any race not to feel welcomed at the ISKCON Temples.
@arnabdas2679: I am of Indian descent and was born and raised in the US. I don’t know the politics of the movement so I am sure there is a lot of ego and corruption whether it be about ISKON or any other org.
That said, you have to understand about the legitimate motivation about many Indian people who have been colonized and continue to be colonized by European and Middle Eastern peoples whom have tried to usurp and appropriate the good parts of our heritage for their own while not giving credit as to who invented it. Simultaneously, they highlight negative aspects of our people and illuminate it as if we are the only ones with problems even though their own communities have the same problems sometimes at higher rates. European and Middle Eastern people continue to do this to this day and that dehumanizes us and our contributions to human civilization.
I hope you honor and appreciate the spirituality that has come out of India and it all brings you peace. Part of the peace for us who do descend from there is being recognized for our humanity and the contributions of our ancestors whose teachings you all are now espousing. Thank you.
@aka-o9x: What was appropriated? I mean, cultures also learn from other cultures, is that bad? E.g., so called "arabic" numbers (which morphed their shape many times on the path since they were invented in India), and e.g. Chaturanga, which now is played in many different further versions around the world, Chess, Chinese chess, and Shoogi.
@aka-o9x: that’s exactly what I was referring to with appropriation. Giving credit to where it came from. I only came across this video of yours so I’m assuming you do that and not accusing you of not, but rather explaining the suspicions those of us in the diaspora have.
@Listenerandlearner870: Is it mostly Indian diaspora in Britain? In some countries such as eastern european devotees look white.
@SaraFreedMiami: *What city 🤔🌆 in UK??*
@edvinchandra1277: It's not just class, education or wealth, Indians have a high level of culture, tradition, moral standards that are unmatched by other cultures. Most are already born vegetarian and very pious. So ISKCON has now created this attributes as standard and qualification of a devotee.
@ВикторШифердеккер: Харе Кришна!!! Материя не позволит сидеть на двух стульях выбор за каждым!!!Удачи!!
@Parzival94-w5i: Preach brother!
@Ajacharya: Back in early 70's it was EXTREMELY Strange to see an Indian bodied person in the Seattle or Portland temples. Now, the Portland temple has basically nothing BUT Indian devotees. And certainly few if any temples have white bodied people living in them that I know of. I left in 79 when the devotees told me it was no longer Srila Prabhupada's temple but the new gurus. That was it fo rme. ❤️🙏🏻
@philo8040: This is not particularly new; I identified this in my own life nearly a couple of decades ago now. It began in the UK with excluding white people - It's difficult to write that, but it is so true - Even at festivals - I am a stranger, not because I feel like one in the company of many Indians etc but because I am treated like a stranger. I hope it changes
@GangaMayi-um6zw: It is really hard but let's be rebels and visit the Deities and chant loudly in the kirtan from time to time because it does make a difference ❤
@bhaktiyogareatreat108: Thank you for making the distinction between ISKCON and Srila Prabhupada movement. An institution is limited a movement keep moving.
@jedsteelwell2354: I live by new Vrindaban and have been going there for years and I can tell you when I was a teen in the 90s there was plenty of white people interested in Bhakti but now when I go the only whites I see are old first generation deciples and Indians. They are all still very welcoming as I know everyone but there's no interest from white people to join iskon or even practice Bhakti because they see it as a cult.
@jackieparcell1370: Hi Narada I am out and about and just watched yr clip by reading the subtitles (sound off because I am in a public meeting). Well done Narada - great that you're giving voice to what you see. I didn't realise you'd left iskcon.
I have heard of your League of Devotees, i will have to Google that. I listen to a lot of hd goswami talks; I think he expresses the situation well. I would only disagree with you on one point: iskcon HAS failed. At least is failing right now. Pascatya desha tarine and all that. Hopefully will run into you sometime y.s. Govardhan dasi
@TaoistMovementArts: Thanks for sharing. Informative.
@chadbutler2287: Feeling unqualified because of body, class, or whatever can either become the root of our indignation or it can humble us and bring us closer to that ideal of humbler than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, and respectful to all without expecting respect. Without expecting respect. The discrimination you've felt is a gift to help destroy your ego, even though you've got twenty years experience AND a university degree with a good job. Maybe specifically because of those factors. All the best to you. Hare Krishna.
@KajanLakhan: I didn't understand what you where saying - so I pressed the summerise video. It's quite an issue. That's why there was a system to have a brahmin controlling prayer. ..then iskcon came , and started talking ill about brahmins. Yip it's quite an issue - and things cause schisms.
@mahasimha8379: Indians work hard and support the temple ... Whites opposite ... That is the reason for the schism.
Lilamanjaridasi: I have white skin but I don't class myself as any class. I have looked at some of the small groups you mentioned, I can appreciate what they're trying to do but there aren't any suitable to me. Change is very much needed there also.
I have a suspicion that ISKCON is approaching a drastic change with westerns taking over and making sure the right things are done for Srila Prabhupada and His mission and for every sincere soul who is seeking something more than the mundane material world.
@aktywnyobserwator5868: Very thoughtful comment.. ISKCON will be brought back to the original purity of SP teachings, in next few years, false gurus will fall or be exposed ! This is happening right now and what we see is just the beginning.. obeisances from Polska.
Lilamanjaridasi: To add - I don't mean there aren't any suitable small groups in the sense of what I think they're doing wrong. I'm sure there are many wonderful groups.
@AnkurSethi108: I have heard in temples, if you want some service or a donation, you ask an Indian, if you want some advice, you ask a white person. It is funny but also true, see where donations come from. ISKCON has such a large demand for money and temples that really only Indians can fulfill it.
Indians are valued because as a group they give a lot, service wise and money wise. It is natural. I don't mean this as for or against what is being said here, but there is a reason for what has happened. Leadership knows that if white people come or not it doesn't matter, but the temple will fail if Indians don't come.
@andersbhakta2563: Sorry to hear about your experience. Of the temples I have visited in Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, and the London temples, I havn't experienced any discrimination of white middle class devotees. I have never heard of it either. In the temple where I serve, the board of seven members consists of five nationalities and I haven't observed any serious conflict in the twelve years I have seved there. I guess everyone has a strong desire to cooperate and find solutions. I hope you find a satisfying spritual association.
All the best
@lilamanjaridasi: In my experience some devotees choose not to notice these things, which sometimes isn't a bad thing because perhaps it's their service to not notice and do anything about it. Instead their service is to serve in that capacity.
There are huge problems, some see them, some feel them and some just don't.
@andersbhakta2563: Yes, it can happen that one sees just what one wants to see, avoiding the painful truth. But you mentioned practical issues, like different rules for different people and that is easy to spot. When it comes to mentality, well we are in the process and noone is perfect. Important thing is that we try together. That is what I have to share from my own experiences in ISKCON. Thanks for sharing yours.
@lifeofsukanti: Thanks for sharing. This is my experience as well in USA. Hindus mainly.
@alanmcbride6658: Thanks brother. God bless.
@Gooliejibson: Definitely small is beautiful.. no room for corruption.
@akumarmalai: Yes remain small and do your service quietly.
@Gooliejibson: Yeah the uk temples do feel more like Hindu temples. Everythng started to change when the road was built at the Manor. Before then it was indescriminate and proportionate demographically
@B.C.ShantaMaharaj: ISKCON is a business, a corporation. They are not going anywhere. I wish them all the money in the world, but you can't buy Krishna consciousness. Basically the leaders have betrayed the rank and file devotees, over and over again. Some one will have to pay the bill.
@aktywnyobserwator5868: Business. Exactly, Prabhu ! Hare Krishna.
@B.C.ShantaMaharaj: There's nothing wrong with being white and middle class. Some of the best people are white and middle class, like me. We left. ISKCON has gone woke. But it was the white middle class who built ISKCON. It's bizarre.
@AllanJones-mb7dt: I'm very low class. And white. And very difficult to fit in at the manor. I live near it. Thier mostly from rich families. I'm a bit scruffy. I think I'm too down to earth for the place. I'm unsophisticated . That's how I was bought up. But im a sincere devotee.
I even got baned over a year ago. Nothing seriose I done. Now they say I can go back but only if I'm with someone. But that's redicoulas . I've no friends or family. I'm a loner. And reclusive. Never mind I just practise kc in my own company. I know I'm a good guy! And krsna also knows.
So im not bothered. I can chant without the temple. Haribol!
@lilamanjaridasi: What I'm about to write may displease you greatly but I feel it's important. How we dress, behave and conduct ourselves is hugely important. New people visit temples all the time, we go to outreach programmes, we're always meeting new people. How we present ourselves has a huge impact on others.
Srila Prabhupada would not want us to be scruffy while trying to encourage others to join in.
@lilamanjaridasi:
@AllanJones-mb7dtIt's a shame you feel you can no longer go.
Of course "lower class" can be devotees, although I don't feel we should think of ourselves as such. Devotees are extraordinary souls. All this class talk needs to go. I do understand and accept hierarchy but low/high class is different.
@paulthomas281: @AllanJones-mb7dt They said that you can come back to the ISKON temple once you are no longer single? That is ridiculous.
@Cihan-o6e9l: Simple living, high thinking. Your qualification is 'being fallen'. That's Lord Caitanya's movement. It has been turned into something else. I am going to suggest what Prabhupada disciples and other senior devotees advised me to do: keep on listening to Prabhupada every single day and ignore the politics within the supposed movement.
That was more than 2 decades ago. Now it's unrecognisable as Prabhupada's movement, even compared to the state it was in then. I can only repeat the same: listen to Prabhupada's actual talks every single day, chant your rounds, develop some sadhana etc.
That IS Krsna, so doing those activities you are associating with Him. Pray to Prabhupada from the bottom of your heart to guide you to find 'real' devotee association. Study his books very carefully. Practical: you need to read Prabhupada's original books. Many devotees do that. Ramya, Bhaja Hari's wfe, distributes the original books. Find her on Facebook and direct message her both about getting the books, and to see, if there are devotees getting together in your area. There are homegroups by those who want to avoid the politics and share the knowledge. Once you feel inspired by this, get out there and share it. You can do that even now, whenever you meet people you get on with.😇😇🙏🙏🙏
Sorry forgot; Ramya's full name is Ramya Murphy.
@Cihan-o6e9l: Ros Ramya Murphy. Just tried searching. There are other Ramya Murphys , but this is her full name.
@AllanJones-mb7dt: @Cihan-o6e9l well. Thats a very interesting coment. Somthing to consider. I have many of prabhupadas lectures and vidioes. And yes. All the politics are confusing . Thats why i dont bother much about it all. I just wana chant and that. Im not likely to get initiated .
All this debate like...isckon is bad or isckon is good . I dont know about all that.
But ill keep in mind what u say.
Main thing is...chant my rounds . Witch i do.
@CliveAdlam-yn8uz: You're a good person .You sound like me .I wish you well forever .Srila Prabhupada, ki. Jay.
@bodhi9464: the Melbourne temple in Australia 🇦🇺 is busy and the BG classes are mostly westerners ..the Krishna restaurants always have queues at lunchtime and many books are also distributed..
I’m sorry this is happening where you are .. I am a Caucasian and always get treated extra special whenever I visit .. the Kirtan I last went to in Melbourne was half full of white western male and female ..
stokaji: May I ask which kirtans you are going to, in which you see so many westerners? The one that is held once a week at the community centre across the road from the temple? Not at the temple itself, surely?
@bodhi9464: @stokaji the last one I attended was in the old theatre room in Prabhupada house about a year ago.. many westerners in there ..
the Melbourne temple itself is mostly Indian folk. Hare Krishna.
@stokaji: @bodhi9464 Yeah, they moved those kirtans from the theatre room to the old reception, then across the road to Mary Kehoe Community Centre. They are held at 6pm on Sundays and are meant to be outreach to Westerners, although many Indian guests attend anyway.
@atrismith7487: It may be International but it isnt diverse
@Jarys-y7t: Generally self-realization is not a mass production except for rare occasions when either Lord Sri Krishna personally intervene or His top servants take the wheel, otherwise it's a lonely rare exercise of very lucky few all together.
@HumptyDumpty-o5q: It’s KALI YUGA and nothing is untouchable by it, even ISKCON.
@TheConduit10: Sad that you feel this . I visited some Brahmacharis of European descent , (I'm of Eurasian descent) You know them , but I wont say who , And I felt I was slighted and put down , But I just sucked it up , and rose above it , didn't harbour any malice - and grew because of it- Hare Krishna
@sarayudas: A prominent Iskcon guru once told me how Iskcon has now turned into IRskcon, Indian and Russian society for Krishna Consciousness, there are no new devotees in the temples in the West, temples are mostly empty except the days of big celebrations and even then, there's mostly Indians who never read a Srila Prabhupad's book and are not really interested in KC.
I think a lot has to do with western people being disappointed with the corruption, scandals, unchecked child abuse, power and money hungry people in charge of the institution.... Maybe western people just ask themselves too many questions for their likings...
@chadbutler2287: Wow. I've also seen a huge difference in the congregations of ISKCON, but to generalize our Indian population as not having read Prabhupada's books couldn't be further from the truth. In Portland Oregon at least I'm surrounded by a mostly Indian community whose realizations are as emotional as they are intellectual, in a perfect balance. In my own experience, it's this Indian community which keeps me attached (to ISKCON).
Two main differences I've seen since I joined in the 80's has been that the temples used to serve small communities that mostly lived within the ashram where nowadays the temple supports a larger community in the varnashram system. The second change was that in the 80's there was a strong focus on rules and hierarchy. Women were unquestionably second class. Now there is a much greater acceptance of devotees' participation regardless of their body type. Maybe a third change worth recognizing that has to do more with our times than our organization is the existence of the internet where it's easy to spew or digest criticisms and politics which affects the openness of our hearts...
@sarayudas: @chadbutler2287 I'm glad you had a different experience than mine. You also live in a different part of the world.
I can assure you, a lot of the Indians attending big utsav like Janmastami, have no idea who Srila Prabhupada is, have a hard time singing along the mahamantra and some even show up drunk smelling of whiskey. On the contrary, people from the Mauritius turn very easily into wonderful devotees.
That is my personal experience. I'm not claiming to know each specific situation in each Iskcon temple the western world.
@CharlesRayWallace: I am Raivata Muni Dasa. New Orleans Devotee.
Sri Sri Radha-Radha Kanta pioneer and servant of Srila Bhakti Tirtha Swami. I traveled to Africa and India. I helped build Srila Prabhupada Palace of Gold. I distributed books in airports in America! I did Sankirtan every where. Preaching is the essence and purity is the force. I know without a doubt ISKCON is UNSTOPPABLE LEGACY BUILDING! Jaya Srila Prabhupada. 🪞™️
@DarkMagaBrandon: The question I keep asking is , why have the Cities got worse when prabhupada would tell city authorities that Harinam Sankirtan lowers crime but there's been half a century of Harinam and ratha yatras around the world and it's increasingly become worse everywhere ???
I joke with my Dad that it's the Hare Krishnas to blame , look at the tineline and their chanting as made everything turn to shit .
@NaradaDasUK: This short talk is also available on our Facebook page: https://fb.watch/GlJo-k5rg1/
Film 2 - Gauranga Sundara Prabhu cuts the cake 
"Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. In Kali-yuga, if this Vedic maha-mantra is chanted regularly and heard regularly by the devotional process of shravanam kirtanam, it will purify all societies, and thus humanity will be happy both materially and spiritually."
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