Ravindra Svarupa's Role in the Guru Reform Movement
BY: ROCANA DASA
Sep 12, CANADA (SUN) — This is in response to Kurma dasa’s recent article, "Monstrous Hoax Continues". Of course, Ravindra Svarupa has made a great effort over the years to paint his own unique myth, and it's understandable that Kurma dasa has accepted some of that as the truth. Ravindra Svarupa has particularly emphasized his role in the Guru Reform movement, painting himself as a key personality, if not the actual architect responsible for bringing the Zonal Acarya system down.
[Rocana is spreading the myth that he and his guru reformers in 1986 "dismantled the Zonal guru system." And it was thus "brought down." Nope. Jayapataka had been in his Mayapura zone ever since the start, and he still is there.
Tamal never left his zone of Texas? And so on!
And even TODAY, every year the GBC assigns "zones" to their gurus. Its in their annual reports. For example, Raghubir aka Bhakti Chaitanya swami has the zone of South Africa; Gopal Krishna swami has the zone of Delhi; Romapada has the zone of Chicago; Indradyumna has the zone of former soviet states -- and so on and so forth. The zonal guru system was never taken down, or even slowed down? Its in full force now as it has been the whole time. Rocana keeps taking credit that his guru reformers took down the zonal guru system, that is a myth.]
RD: Those of us who were closely involved with the Guru Reform movement, myself included, know that Ravindra Svarupa did attend the meetings and he was vocal.
[PADA: Very foolish idea, gurus need reform.]
RD: Because of his academic background he was very adept at writing articles, as were Bahudak dasa and other personalities attending the various meetings that took place at the Towaco NJ temple over a period of about a year. These devotees wrote numerous articles and put pressure on the Zonal Acaryas to consider the errors of their ways.
Of course, we didn’t have a concrete idea at that time of what should actually replace the Zonal Acarya system. We only knew that it was wrong, as evidenced by the results it was getting, and we certainly knew that the many nefarious activities of some of the Zonal Acaryas were wrong.
[PADA: OK here is the first problem. Rocana "did not know" that the way to replace the bogus guru worship process is to jettison the bogus process and replace it with the bona fide process i.e. by re-establishing Srila Prabhupada as the acharya. We "did not know" that the way to fix a bogus worship process is to re-establish the real worship process? We did not know that people need to worship the actual acharya and not the bogus acharyas? Why didn't "the reformers" know that Srila Prabhupada should be established as the acharya?]
RD: There were two main groups involved in the Guru Reform effort: those who wanted to genuinely reform ISKCON for the sake of Srila Prabhupada, and those who were there to secure their own opportunity to become gurus. With some of the sannyasis, like Bir Krishna and Ravindra Svarupa, we weren’t sure until well into the process just what their personal motivations were. But time made it clear that Ravindra Svarupa was ambitious to get his own piece of the pie.
BY: ROCANA DASA
Sep 12, CANADA (SUN) — This is in response to Kurma dasa’s recent article, "Monstrous Hoax Continues". Of course, Ravindra Svarupa has made a great effort over the years to paint his own unique myth, and it's understandable that Kurma dasa has accepted some of that as the truth. Ravindra Svarupa has particularly emphasized his role in the Guru Reform movement, painting himself as a key personality, if not the actual architect responsible for bringing the Zonal Acarya system down.
[Rocana is spreading the myth that he and his guru reformers in 1986 "dismantled the Zonal guru system." And it was thus "brought down." Nope. Jayapataka had been in his Mayapura zone ever since the start, and he still is there.
Tamal never left his zone of Texas? And so on!
And even TODAY, every year the GBC assigns "zones" to their gurus. Its in their annual reports. For example, Raghubir aka Bhakti Chaitanya swami has the zone of South Africa; Gopal Krishna swami has the zone of Delhi; Romapada has the zone of Chicago; Indradyumna has the zone of former soviet states -- and so on and so forth. The zonal guru system was never taken down, or even slowed down? Its in full force now as it has been the whole time. Rocana keeps taking credit that his guru reformers took down the zonal guru system, that is a myth.]
RD: Those of us who were closely involved with the Guru Reform movement, myself included, know that Ravindra Svarupa did attend the meetings and he was vocal.
[PADA: Very foolish idea, gurus need reform.]
RD: Because of his academic background he was very adept at writing articles, as were Bahudak dasa and other personalities attending the various meetings that took place at the Towaco NJ temple over a period of about a year. These devotees wrote numerous articles and put pressure on the Zonal Acaryas to consider the errors of their ways.
Of course, we didn’t have a concrete idea at that time of what should actually replace the Zonal Acarya system. We only knew that it was wrong, as evidenced by the results it was getting, and we certainly knew that the many nefarious activities of some of the Zonal Acaryas were wrong.
[PADA: OK here is the first problem. Rocana "did not know" that the way to replace the bogus guru worship process is to jettison the bogus process and replace it with the bona fide process i.e. by re-establishing Srila Prabhupada as the acharya. We "did not know" that the way to fix a bogus worship process is to re-establish the real worship process? We did not know that people need to worship the actual acharya and not the bogus acharyas? Why didn't "the reformers" know that Srila Prabhupada should be established as the acharya?]
RD: There were two main groups involved in the Guru Reform effort: those who wanted to genuinely reform ISKCON for the sake of Srila Prabhupada, and those who were there to secure their own opportunity to become gurus. With some of the sannyasis, like Bir Krishna and Ravindra Svarupa, we weren’t sure until well into the process just what their personal motivations were. But time made it clear that Ravindra Svarupa was ambitious to get his own piece of the pie.
[PADA: But Rocana admits there never was any proper alternate suggestion, nor did "the reformers" ever make a conclusive position paper to spell out the exact purpose of the reform? That most of the reformers wanted to become gurus was self evident. The reformers backed and assisted the GBC in reinstating (sex with taxi drivers?) Bhavananda. And at the same time they were propping up Kirtanananda in his battle against Sulochana, and so on and so forth. The GBC wrote a paper (with help from the reformers) saying that Sulochana was offending a great devotee like Kirtanananda.
The reform was compromised with the Zonal Guru program right out of the gate. Satsvarupa was one of the persons helping "the reform," and he (along with Narayan Maharaja) wrote "The Guru Reform Notebook." Oddly that was the only written document we could find that spelled out some of their goals, but he was one of the Zonal Gurus. And in the booklet SDG claims that Narayan Maharaja is helping the GBC with said reform. Why would they be interested in a factual reform to establish the acharya? That is like expecting the bank robbers to be the helpful assistants to the police department?
They never said they wanted to re-establish the worship of the bona fide acharya, and that is why me and Sulochana said this reform is a hoax. Nor did the reformers ever explain, how does the acharya become a deviant who needs to be reformed? And if there is going to be a real reform, shouldn't the reformers be writing their own clear cut position papers, not Satsvarupa? And even in the writings of Satsvarupa he complains that many people were attacking and making snide comments "Guru and -- Reform" because this whole idea that guru needs reform was a laughing stock for many people right out of the gate.]
RD: The real history of the Guru Reform movement is that there was a big culmination of events which took place at the biggest meeting, held at New Vrindaban in the summer of 1985. I was there in the room when a communiqué, which I recall was a notarized document faxed from Atlanta, wherein a devotee made a formal statement to his Temple President explaining how Bhavananda had seduced him. He happened to be a very handsome black devotee, who explained in detail how in Vrindavan, Bhavananda had engaged him in homosexual activities, practically forcing him to do so.
The reform was compromised with the Zonal Guru program right out of the gate. Satsvarupa was one of the persons helping "the reform," and he (along with Narayan Maharaja) wrote "The Guru Reform Notebook." Oddly that was the only written document we could find that spelled out some of their goals, but he was one of the Zonal Gurus. And in the booklet SDG claims that Narayan Maharaja is helping the GBC with said reform. Why would they be interested in a factual reform to establish the acharya? That is like expecting the bank robbers to be the helpful assistants to the police department?
They never said they wanted to re-establish the worship of the bona fide acharya, and that is why me and Sulochana said this reform is a hoax. Nor did the reformers ever explain, how does the acharya become a deviant who needs to be reformed? And if there is going to be a real reform, shouldn't the reformers be writing their own clear cut position papers, not Satsvarupa? And even in the writings of Satsvarupa he complains that many people were attacking and making snide comments "Guru and -- Reform" because this whole idea that guru needs reform was a laughing stock for many people right out of the gate.]
RD: The real history of the Guru Reform movement is that there was a big culmination of events which took place at the biggest meeting, held at New Vrindaban in the summer of 1985. I was there in the room when a communiqué, which I recall was a notarized document faxed from Atlanta, wherein a devotee made a formal statement to his Temple President explaining how Bhavananda had seduced him. He happened to be a very handsome black devotee, who explained in detail how in Vrindavan, Bhavananda had engaged him in homosexual activities, practically forcing him to do so.
The arrival of this report was the straw that broke the camel’s back. The Zonal Acaryas, primarily Tamal Krishna Goswami, Ramesvara and some of the others, knew the gig was up at that point, and they had to ‘work something out’. From that point on, their mood was, 'OK, we’re going to change, but how are we going to change?'
[PADA: They did not change? They temporarily suspended Bhavananda, and then -- with the help of the reformers -- they reinstated Bhavananda BACK in the post of Vishnupada acharya. And then the reformers helped excommunicate Sulochana in 1986. Sulochana said these reformers have "painted a bulls-eye on my back to get me assassinated" by demonizing him and promoting the people Sulochana was attacking, and still claiming the deviants are "gurus."
[PADA: They did not change? They temporarily suspended Bhavananda, and then -- with the help of the reformers -- they reinstated Bhavananda BACK in the post of Vishnupada acharya. And then the reformers helped excommunicate Sulochana in 1986. Sulochana said these reformers have "painted a bulls-eye on my back to get me assassinated" by demonizing him and promoting the people Sulochana was attacking, and still claiming the deviants are "gurus."
In sum, Sulochana thought these reformers were trying to get him killed by propping up the worst case GBC gurus like Bhavananda and Kirtanananda, the people he was opposing. And he was right, the reformers helped excommunicating him in March 1986 and he was dead by May 1986. He lived for only 90 days after the reformers "painted a bulls-eye" on Sulochana's back, according to Sulochana. He said the reformers are out to get me killed, and he was killed, is this a coincidence?]
RD: They then met with Ravindra Svarupa, who was cast in the role of a Benedict Arnold. The Zonal Acaryas figured out that he was the weak link, whereas the others, like Bahudak and myself, were too radical.
RD: They then met with Ravindra Svarupa, who was cast in the role of a Benedict Arnold. The Zonal Acaryas figured out that he was the weak link, whereas the others, like Bahudak and myself, were too radical.
[PADA: Yes, the Rocana Guru Reformer's idea that gurus need reform for deviation is very radical and foolish. There is no such thing as an acharya needing reform and the whole thing was a hoax from day one, square one. Rocana is a fool if he thinks acharyas need reform and he is the person to be reforming them. Bahudak was apparently working with the Satsvarupa / Narayana Maharaja team. How can we reform ISKCON by working with the people who are keeping Tamal in the acharya's seat?
Ravindra swarupa is not the weak link, they all believed that gurus are conditioned souls who need reform, and therefore voting in more conditioned souls as gurus would be the logical extension of that illusion. Me and Sulochana were saying the reformers just want a piece of the pie the whole time, and that is why the reformers attacked us and demonized us, we were onto them from the get go.
Rocana did not know that the main goal of "the reform" was to spread the guru-ship to more people, when all of us knew that was their main goal? Trivrikrama swami for example said, "they had their turn now its ours" (to be worshiped as acharyas). It was well known these people were saying these things?]
Ravindra swarupa is not the weak link, they all believed that gurus are conditioned souls who need reform, and therefore voting in more conditioned souls as gurus would be the logical extension of that illusion. Me and Sulochana were saying the reformers just want a piece of the pie the whole time, and that is why the reformers attacked us and demonized us, we were onto them from the get go.
Rocana did not know that the main goal of "the reform" was to spread the guru-ship to more people, when all of us knew that was their main goal? Trivrikrama swami for example said, "they had their turn now its ours" (to be worshiped as acharyas). It was well known these people were saying these things?]
RD: We wanted changes that they just weren’t willing to accept. For example, we wanted them to adopt the understanding that their disciples, who had been forced to accept as a Spiritual Master whatever Zonal Acarya happened to be nearby, should be told that they weren’t really genuine disciples because that’s not how the process works.
Yes, it works in the case of a Sampradaya Acarya like Srila Prabhupada, who founded and established the movement, and who was the only Spiritual Master to choose from at the time. But we wanted them to essentially inform all their disciples that the whole process had been bogus and they shouldn’t consider themselves disciples of that guru any longer. Instead, they should be free to choose whoever they wanted as a diksa guru.
[PADA: So how can we run a religion where any member of the Church can decide he is the next diksha guru / acharya / parampara member / next Jesus, and he can then become the next worshiped acharya and accept the sins of followers and so on? Anyone who decides he is the next Jesus, can be? And the church has to allow any rank and file congregation member to simply declare they are the next Jesus, and the institution has to accept that person as another Jesus?
And the Church will not even bother to regulate -- who -- will be these next temple pot washer messiahs, or perhaps who will be the next dozens or maybe thousands of new messiahs. Rather the newest members of the congregation will get to decide who is the next Jesus, the seniors and elders will not even be consulted or allowed to regulate "who is and who is not" allowed to be taking the post of messiah for the religion.
[PADA: So how can we run a religion where any member of the Church can decide he is the next diksha guru / acharya / parampara member / next Jesus, and he can then become the next worshiped acharya and accept the sins of followers and so on? Anyone who decides he is the next Jesus, can be? And the church has to allow any rank and file congregation member to simply declare they are the next Jesus, and the institution has to accept that person as another Jesus?
And the Church will not even bother to regulate -- who -- will be these next temple pot washer messiahs, or perhaps who will be the next dozens or maybe thousands of new messiahs. Rather the newest members of the congregation will get to decide who is the next Jesus, the seniors and elders will not even be consulted or allowed to regulate "who is and who is not" allowed to be taking the post of messiah for the religion.
How will this work? There is going to be a church where 50 people, including the church pot washer, are all declaring they are the next Jesus. And the senior elders of the church cannot regulate that process, rather the newest people who just joined get to decide who is the next Jesus and not the church's elders? That places control of the guru tattva in the hands of the brand new people.
There is no way such a process could work in an institution. Its total anarchy. Anyone and everyone who feels like the are another Jesus can simply declare they are another messiah, and there is no check and balance system to regulate that process? And its not even up to the elders to manage that process, rather the brand new members of the church decide how to manage -- the acharya system. Where does Srila Prabhupada say, take a brand new bhakta guy off the street, and let him decide who is the acharya for ISKCON, there is no longer any need for the seniors and elders to participate in these decisions?
There is no way such a process could work in an institution. Its total anarchy. Anyone and everyone who feels like the are another Jesus can simply declare they are another messiah, and there is no check and balance system to regulate that process? And its not even up to the elders to manage that process, rather the brand new members of the church decide how to manage -- the acharya system. Where does Srila Prabhupada say, take a brand new bhakta guy off the street, and let him decide who is the acharya for ISKCON, there is no longer any need for the seniors and elders to participate in these decisions?
Yes, Rocana does not even want the shastra proficient experienced senior elders to decide who will be the next Jesus, rather the brand new people off the street will decide who is the next Jesus, without any input from the elders. That means the new people would be managing the religion and the elders would have abandoned their duty to ensure that the proper standards are being applied to the acharya status.
And in Rocana's scheme, what happens to people like Sulochana who want to promote Srila Prabhupada as the acharya? And what about those of us that did not want the new people to anoint dozens or maybe hundreds of more conditioned souls as acharyas? We do not even rate any inclusion in their system.
Oh I almost forgot, Rocana's reformers had a nice plan for us Prabhupadanuga's people, we would be shunned, sued, harassed, given death threats, banned, chased with baseball bats, beaten and shot. There was no place for these people who wanted to worship Prabhupada as their acharya in the reformer's scheme. Sulochana knew that, and that is why they targeted him.
And what about the people who all thought Ravindra is the next guru, or Prabhavishnu, Prithu and others? Does Rocana think, just because a few brand new people think someone is an acharya, that makes them an acharya? What if the new people make a mistake in selecting their next acharya, and they create a violent fanatical cult, who will fix that? Rocana?
And in Rocana's scheme, what happens to people like Sulochana who want to promote Srila Prabhupada as the acharya? And what about those of us that did not want the new people to anoint dozens or maybe hundreds of more conditioned souls as acharyas? We do not even rate any inclusion in their system.
Oh I almost forgot, Rocana's reformers had a nice plan for us Prabhupadanuga's people, we would be shunned, sued, harassed, given death threats, banned, chased with baseball bats, beaten and shot. There was no place for these people who wanted to worship Prabhupada as their acharya in the reformer's scheme. Sulochana knew that, and that is why they targeted him.
And what about the people who all thought Ravindra is the next guru, or Prabhavishnu, Prithu and others? Does Rocana think, just because a few brand new people think someone is an acharya, that makes them an acharya? What if the new people make a mistake in selecting their next acharya, and they create a violent fanatical cult, who will fix that? Rocana?
Rocana says that any new person off the street can select anyone he wants as the next acharya, and that means he handed over the managing on ISKCON to the brand new bhaktas. And what if the new bhaktas selected a sexual predator as their next messiah, then what? Rocana has already cut off any managing of these deviations by saying its up to the most junior people to manage the acharya process in the religion. And what happens when ISKCON get sued for making deviants and sexual predators into their next acharyas, will Rocana pay for that, or will he make ISKCON pay?]
RD: Of course, the Zonal Acaryas were completely unwilling to take such an action. People like Harikesa and Jayapataka and Bhagavan they threatened to leave the movement if this policy was instituted, and they were very adamant about that. So they went to Ravindra Svarupa and convinced him that he would be cause of dissolving Srila Prabhupada's movement if he don’t go along with an arrangement that suited them.
[PADA: Rocana's arrangement is worse than the GBC's arrangement? At least the GBC tries to make pretend they are regulating their gurus. Rocana says we should open the flood gates, toss out all forms of senior devotee's managing of the movement, and have the new people decide who is qualified to be the next acharya. The seniors are not going to have any input or regulation of that process.
And Rocana still says that the disciples are not Srila Prabhupada's? Rocana said then that the disciples are not Srila Prabhupada's, this is the bogus ritvik idea, and that is what Tamal was saying also in 1986. First of all, how can we run a religion where we say, Jesus is not the guru of the church anymore. Any member of the church who wants to be the next messiah can do so, and the newest members of the church will get to decide which person they want to have as the new messiah of the church. That is chaos. There is no means to regulate a religion where anyone who decides he is the acharya, is.]
RD: So Ravindra Svarupa didn’t come up with the successful Reform plan… the Zonal Acaryas themselves came up with the plan. They articulated exactly how it was going to be, and Ravindra Svarupa was their mouthpiece. First and foremost, they would keep their disciples. There would be no announcement for them to change. They’d also keep their zones, except now the uninitiated devotees would be informed that they didn’t have to get initiated by the Zonal Acarya. Instead, there would other persons authorized to give diksa, like Ravindra Svarupa and Bir Krishna -- the ones who “cooperated” with them, who were not radicals, they would be allowed to initiate first and foremost. And basically, that was the program from there on in.
[PADA: Rocana's plan was that anyone who wants to be the next messiah can be, if he can convince some of the newest people that he is the next messiah. What kind of plan is that? Then there will be total anarchy, there will not be merely 50 mini-guru cults and resultant violent fanatics, there will be hundreds, thousands. And none of them will cooperate with each other because the followers of one guru party will not accept the authority of the other guru party, which is already a problem but Rocana will turn that into a free flowing flood.]
RD: Of course, it was easy to understand how such a program would work. The Zonal Acaryas had a bunch of fanatical disciples, because that’s how the Zonal Acarya’s did it… they trained and cultivated the devotees to be fanatical disciples. And these disciples had been put in charge of temples and programs. The Zonals knew that they were going to put pressure on the newcomers to get initiated by their gurus, which was the case then just as it is today. So the newcomer gurus got to have some disciples, and as long as they stayed in their own little zones, like Ravindra Svarupa and Bir Krishna did, they could collect disciples without infringing the promotional activities of the big Zonal Gurus.
[PADA: Wow! So Rocana admits, when people declare they are the next acharya in ISKCON, this is creating fanatical (violent) people. Why does he want to spread this disease far and wide? We already have a big problem with maverick gurus and sub-violent cults, so lets open the floodgates and have thousands more violent mini-guru cults. Umm, there has not been enough blood on Rocana's hands already from his idea of having maverick acharyas, he wants more?
Yes instead of having 11 violent fanatical guru cults, lets make hundreds more. Wait! How about thousands more? Yes lets place violent mini-guru cults and their fanatics in charge of Krishna's religion. OK so Rocana's fanatical guru cult program, which murders people, should be spread all over the place by making hundreds more of such cults?]
RD: For the most part, the Zonal Acaryas who survived, who managed not to fall down, such as Jayapataka, are essentially still Zonal Acaryas to this day.
[PADA: Correct, the Zonal Acharya system has never been dissolved, its still going on left, right and center.]
RD: Today we have some new Zonal Acaryas who have evolved up the ranks, but they accomplished this not on their own spiritual potency, but as a result of being lieutenants of the other Zonal Acaryas. They inherited disciples, or there was pressure put on disciples to get re-initiated by them. For example, Radhanath was Kirtanananda's close associate, so he and Bhakti Tirtha Swami got to split the take-over of Kirtanananda's disciples. Sivarama and Indradyumna were close associates of Bhagavan and Jayatirtha, etc. You can go right down the list and identify all the Princes of the Zonal Acarya Kings.
It's a fact, as Kurma dasa writes, that this system of voted-in gurus is nonsense.
[PADA: Right, Rocana does not even want any votes to regulate who is the acharya, its just a free for all. Every nut in the asylum can say they are Jesus, why regulate that process?]
Of course, Kurma prabhu is trying to make out that Srila Prabhupada’s original program, which he thinks is synonymous with the current Rtvik system, should be put in place now. That’s where he and I have a different understanding. I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.
[PADA: A system where any rank and file member of the religion can declare they are the acharya and they can absorb sins like Jesus is found in shastra?]
The diksa guru phenomenon has existed since time immemorial. Although very few of the millions and millions of diksa gurus throughout time were Sampradaya Acaryas, those who were sufficiently potent, who did proper service and who did not become contaminated as a result of falsely or immaturely taking disciples, they were the ones who closely followed and aligned themselves with the Sampradaya Acaryas in our Disciplic Succession. I’ve explained this in far more detail in my "Sampradaya Acarya" paper.
So while Kurma dasa and I differ on the essential guru issue, when it comes to his conclusions about the bogus systems that ISKCON has put in place, and particular the Zonal Acarya system, he and I are certainly on the same page. However, he is apparently carrying around some misconceptions of the historical realities of the Guru Reform movement of the mid-1980's, and Ravindra Svarupa's involvement in it. Hopefully this will help him to adjust his understanding of this important element of ISKCON history.
======================
PADA to GJ dasa: Yes, now our devotees in India have started the Srila Prabhupada Asraya Program in places like Hyderabad. That means they have understood the principle of accepting and taking shelter of the acharya. And that is why the GBC is spending $20,000,000 suing these devotees in the Supreme Court of Delhi, they want to kick out anyone who takes shelter of the acharya. Did I forget to mention, that the GBC were already sued for $400,000,000 for mass child abuse because they kicked us out when we said there is a child abuse program?
A few followers of Jayapataka complained to me earlier this year that I caused the GBC to file bankrupt of ISKCON with all "my lawsuits" and they blamed me also for the Delhi lawsuit -- because those Prabhupada devotees are citing documents from my site. And they complained these combined lawsuits have cost over $100,000,000, and its all my fault.
So let me get this straight, we tell people to worship the pure devotee, we tell people not to worship sexual predators as their acharyas, and the resultant lawsuits and bankrupting of ISKCON are -- my fault? No, they are pushing their worship of sexual predators process -- and they are using lawsuits to keep it going. Without their spending over $100,000,000 on lawsuits, their program would have collapsed a long time ago. That is why Srila Prabhupada called the Gaudiya Matha "high court acharyas," because without lawsuits, they would not be acharyas.
That means purity is not the foundation, money, lawyers and goonda tactics is the foundation of their sampradaya. And now they are burying sexual predators in samadhis, same reason, they are paying off local authorities to get city burial permits to allow that. Money is not the cause of Krishna's parampara, purity is.
As for Rocana, he was one of the people who helped get me and Sulochana exiled and vilified in 1986, which is why Sulochana was assassinated. Rocana's reformers excommunicated Sulochana and said we are demons. And you are citing these people as your authority?
The people who have the blood of Srila Prabhupada's devotees on their hands, like the 1986 reformers, are your authority? And did we forget to mention, kicking us out enhanced and enabled their children abuse program? And that means, we are to blame? They killed people who opposed them and Rocana was a co-member of that program at the time, and he still says we are the deviants, he is still demonizing our Prabhupada ashraya program even now. So that is why we are still being banned, sued and attacked, he is inciting these attacks still. ys pd
RD: Of course, the Zonal Acaryas were completely unwilling to take such an action. People like Harikesa and Jayapataka and Bhagavan they threatened to leave the movement if this policy was instituted, and they were very adamant about that. So they went to Ravindra Svarupa and convinced him that he would be cause of dissolving Srila Prabhupada's movement if he don’t go along with an arrangement that suited them.
[PADA: Rocana's arrangement is worse than the GBC's arrangement? At least the GBC tries to make pretend they are regulating their gurus. Rocana says we should open the flood gates, toss out all forms of senior devotee's managing of the movement, and have the new people decide who is qualified to be the next acharya. The seniors are not going to have any input or regulation of that process.
And Rocana still says that the disciples are not Srila Prabhupada's? Rocana said then that the disciples are not Srila Prabhupada's, this is the bogus ritvik idea, and that is what Tamal was saying also in 1986. First of all, how can we run a religion where we say, Jesus is not the guru of the church anymore. Any member of the church who wants to be the next messiah can do so, and the newest members of the church will get to decide which person they want to have as the new messiah of the church. That is chaos. There is no means to regulate a religion where anyone who decides he is the acharya, is.]
RD: So Ravindra Svarupa didn’t come up with the successful Reform plan… the Zonal Acaryas themselves came up with the plan. They articulated exactly how it was going to be, and Ravindra Svarupa was their mouthpiece. First and foremost, they would keep their disciples. There would be no announcement for them to change. They’d also keep their zones, except now the uninitiated devotees would be informed that they didn’t have to get initiated by the Zonal Acarya. Instead, there would other persons authorized to give diksa, like Ravindra Svarupa and Bir Krishna -- the ones who “cooperated” with them, who were not radicals, they would be allowed to initiate first and foremost. And basically, that was the program from there on in.
[PADA: Rocana's plan was that anyone who wants to be the next messiah can be, if he can convince some of the newest people that he is the next messiah. What kind of plan is that? Then there will be total anarchy, there will not be merely 50 mini-guru cults and resultant violent fanatics, there will be hundreds, thousands. And none of them will cooperate with each other because the followers of one guru party will not accept the authority of the other guru party, which is already a problem but Rocana will turn that into a free flowing flood.]
RD: Of course, it was easy to understand how such a program would work. The Zonal Acaryas had a bunch of fanatical disciples, because that’s how the Zonal Acarya’s did it… they trained and cultivated the devotees to be fanatical disciples. And these disciples had been put in charge of temples and programs. The Zonals knew that they were going to put pressure on the newcomers to get initiated by their gurus, which was the case then just as it is today. So the newcomer gurus got to have some disciples, and as long as they stayed in their own little zones, like Ravindra Svarupa and Bir Krishna did, they could collect disciples without infringing the promotional activities of the big Zonal Gurus.
[PADA: Wow! So Rocana admits, when people declare they are the next acharya in ISKCON, this is creating fanatical (violent) people. Why does he want to spread this disease far and wide? We already have a big problem with maverick gurus and sub-violent cults, so lets open the floodgates and have thousands more violent mini-guru cults. Umm, there has not been enough blood on Rocana's hands already from his idea of having maverick acharyas, he wants more?
Yes instead of having 11 violent fanatical guru cults, lets make hundreds more. Wait! How about thousands more? Yes lets place violent mini-guru cults and their fanatics in charge of Krishna's religion. OK so Rocana's fanatical guru cult program, which murders people, should be spread all over the place by making hundreds more of such cults?]
RD: For the most part, the Zonal Acaryas who survived, who managed not to fall down, such as Jayapataka, are essentially still Zonal Acaryas to this day.
[PADA: Correct, the Zonal Acharya system has never been dissolved, its still going on left, right and center.]
RD: Today we have some new Zonal Acaryas who have evolved up the ranks, but they accomplished this not on their own spiritual potency, but as a result of being lieutenants of the other Zonal Acaryas. They inherited disciples, or there was pressure put on disciples to get re-initiated by them. For example, Radhanath was Kirtanananda's close associate, so he and Bhakti Tirtha Swami got to split the take-over of Kirtanananda's disciples. Sivarama and Indradyumna were close associates of Bhagavan and Jayatirtha, etc. You can go right down the list and identify all the Princes of the Zonal Acarya Kings.
It's a fact, as Kurma dasa writes, that this system of voted-in gurus is nonsense.
[PADA: Right, Rocana does not even want any votes to regulate who is the acharya, its just a free for all. Every nut in the asylum can say they are Jesus, why regulate that process?]
Of course, Kurma prabhu is trying to make out that Srila Prabhupada’s original program, which he thinks is synonymous with the current Rtvik system, should be put in place now. That’s where he and I have a different understanding. I don’t think you can introduce a system that has no verification in sastra.
[PADA: A system where any rank and file member of the religion can declare they are the acharya and they can absorb sins like Jesus is found in shastra?]
The diksa guru phenomenon has existed since time immemorial. Although very few of the millions and millions of diksa gurus throughout time were Sampradaya Acaryas, those who were sufficiently potent, who did proper service and who did not become contaminated as a result of falsely or immaturely taking disciples, they were the ones who closely followed and aligned themselves with the Sampradaya Acaryas in our Disciplic Succession. I’ve explained this in far more detail in my "Sampradaya Acarya" paper.
So while Kurma dasa and I differ on the essential guru issue, when it comes to his conclusions about the bogus systems that ISKCON has put in place, and particular the Zonal Acarya system, he and I are certainly on the same page. However, he is apparently carrying around some misconceptions of the historical realities of the Guru Reform movement of the mid-1980's, and Ravindra Svarupa's involvement in it. Hopefully this will help him to adjust his understanding of this important element of ISKCON history.
======================
PADA to GJ dasa: Yes, now our devotees in India have started the Srila Prabhupada Asraya Program in places like Hyderabad. That means they have understood the principle of accepting and taking shelter of the acharya. And that is why the GBC is spending $20,000,000 suing these devotees in the Supreme Court of Delhi, they want to kick out anyone who takes shelter of the acharya. Did I forget to mention, that the GBC were already sued for $400,000,000 for mass child abuse because they kicked us out when we said there is a child abuse program?
A few followers of Jayapataka complained to me earlier this year that I caused the GBC to file bankrupt of ISKCON with all "my lawsuits" and they blamed me also for the Delhi lawsuit -- because those Prabhupada devotees are citing documents from my site. And they complained these combined lawsuits have cost over $100,000,000, and its all my fault.
So let me get this straight, we tell people to worship the pure devotee, we tell people not to worship sexual predators as their acharyas, and the resultant lawsuits and bankrupting of ISKCON are -- my fault? No, they are pushing their worship of sexual predators process -- and they are using lawsuits to keep it going. Without their spending over $100,000,000 on lawsuits, their program would have collapsed a long time ago. That is why Srila Prabhupada called the Gaudiya Matha "high court acharyas," because without lawsuits, they would not be acharyas.
That means purity is not the foundation, money, lawyers and goonda tactics is the foundation of their sampradaya. And now they are burying sexual predators in samadhis, same reason, they are paying off local authorities to get city burial permits to allow that. Money is not the cause of Krishna's parampara, purity is.
As for Rocana, he was one of the people who helped get me and Sulochana exiled and vilified in 1986, which is why Sulochana was assassinated. Rocana's reformers excommunicated Sulochana and said we are demons. And you are citing these people as your authority?
The people who have the blood of Srila Prabhupada's devotees on their hands, like the 1986 reformers, are your authority? And did we forget to mention, kicking us out enhanced and enabled their children abuse program? And that means, we are to blame? They killed people who opposed them and Rocana was a co-member of that program at the time, and he still says we are the deviants, he is still demonizing our Prabhupada ashraya program even now. So that is why we are still being banned, sued and attacked, he is inciting these attacks still. ys pd
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