MD VS PADA update 11 08 25

 

MD: Okay, let them do that, but at the same time, let them understand that they are under supervision, and that supervision is from the congregation—the people. They are not their own masters. 

PD: Right, so now we are saying there has to be a congregation, that means some form of organized preaching. That is what the Prabhupada devotees are doing. That means your sva-self diksha idea is false, there needs to be others involved.  

MD: And again: today you're a ritvik, tomorrow you're not. There's no need to idealize everything.

PD: People were coming and going when Prabhupada was here even, people came, people blooped, and so on.  Neophytes can make progress, and fail, and that is well understood by already by everyone. You are a devotee today, and not tomorrow, ok that always goes on, even in the 1930s.  

MD: Materialists can also contribute something useful, their technologies for better serving Krishna, but that doesn't mean they're now my authority and I'm obligated to listen to them in everything. 

PD: If people had been obligated to listen to me, almost none of the child mistreatment would have been committed. It would have been avoided. But no one is obligated to follow anyone, we all have free will. 

MD: Thank you for your help—they'll get their dividends, but we won't allow this to turn into a new tyranny and exploit the "you owe us for the rest of your lives" mentality. 

PD: Right, no one was ever obligated to help Prabhupada, and no one is obligated to help me just because I helped them. Everyone has free will, they are also not even obligated to serve Krishna, never mind me.   

MD :Why do ritviks think they're the ones making people devotees, and not Prabhupada? 

PD: Good question. Why are you preaching at all, and not letting Prabhupada do all the preaching? I forgot, you are the only authorized licensed agent of Srila Prabhupada, not us. Sorry, you cannot give yourself the only license to preach because you are the only pure representative.

You also do not know what Prabhupada said? He said us, his followers, have to do the preaching, and distribute his books etc. He never said he was going to do the whole thing. Srila Prabhupada is not going to come here and worship the temple deity, do the cooking, print the books and so on, that is our job. But his books will help others, but only if we put the books into the hands of others. Krishna is not going to print the books, we have to do that as OUR service.   

MD: What do you mean, Prabhupada is solely responsible; he'll take away all the sins, and we'll get the good stuff? Then Prabhupada gets everything, not just the bad.

PD: I never said Srila Prabhupada is soley responsible for anything. If someone is not following, then they break the contract and he is no longer obligated. He said that. He is only responsible for a sincere follower. 

MD: You're confusing terms. A sva-bhakta means someone who belongs to a certain tradition. 

PD: First of all, there is no such thing as a self made bhakta or sva-bhakta. Every bhakta has become one because someone else gave him some information. He did not find out about Krishna by watching football.

Anyway, now you are arguing with yourself. A person who is following a tradition is following others, not his own sva self. This is a contradiction, he is following his sva self, and he is also following the congregation and tradition. This is mixed up and makes no sense. The Mayavadas also have a sva self discovery system where you find God within yourself by your own self meditation, this is not our process.  

MD: What you're talking about is atma-bhakta. This is possible because bhakti, by its causeless mercy, can manifest both through the devotee and through self-manifestation within a person. 

PD: But the recommended process is to be given the instructions from a practicing bhakta, and not have to speculate on what it is endlessly. A person who tries to figure Krishna out on their own is going to have a lot of struggles, even I can see the struggles when people ask me questions. They do not see things automatically on their own -- except in rare cases. 

MD: Prabhupada supports this because it's described in Vaishnava teachings. A person becomes a bhakta even before diksa. And as I understand it, ritviks consider other bhaktas inferior until they undergo their ritual. This is again a hierarchy, like in the GBC. That's why they say GBC 2.0.

PD: So we are going to have a society with no leaders or hierarchy? Everyone will be running around with no cohesive organized process? That sounds like a monkey farm. 

No, there has to be leaders and directors even for a shoe store at the mall. Someone is the shoe store's boss, someone is the secretary, someone is the sales man etc., there has to be a governing system even for a shoe store, never mind an international religion. There will be no leaders, there will be no organization, fine -- then there will be simply chaos and monkey society. Srila Prabhupada wanted senior people to be leaders, just like any organized business or society. 

I also never even ask people if they are initiated or not, or by whom, when they ask questions. I don't see them as inferior or superior, if they ask questions I assume they are sincere. 

The ritvik initiated people here are mainly the people doing the pooja, not the rest of the congregation. Not everyone is expected to be initiated, and it is not even a big request here. It is mainly for the pooja. It seems to me you are against making the pooja. You say we should not have any ritvik initiated brahmanas, then there will be no one to do the pooja. That is not the process. 

MD: Sva-diksa doesn't exclude accepting instructions for the purpose of correcting sadhana. What's the use of any diksa, even sva-diksa, if there's no sadhana afterwards? Diksa is only the beginning, not the end of the path.

PD: Right, so people need to be trained in the system of sadhana. And they should not even get official diksha if they are not aware of the system.  

MD: Where was I against helping others? The concept of sva-diksa is precisely an attempt to help others.

PD: Telling people they only need themselves for their own process is not helping them at all. They need association and guidance, especially when they are newbies. There is no such thing as sva-diksha, this was never mentioned. People should learn from others already on the path, that is the system Srila Prabhupada made. 

MD: There's no need to change concepts. The fact that ritvik is synonymous with brahmana doesn't mean ritviks can use it as a cover for evil.

PD: Well you are also preaching and some people could say you are evil and you are trying to manipulate others for personal gain. Preaching is not synonymous with evil, although it may be in some cases. 

But you already changed up the whole concept, people do not need advice, they are sva-self realized on their own. We do not need the ritviks to help them, they will help themselves. Sorry, we are making new devotees by HELPING them come to the platform. Waiting for them to come on their own is NOT the system.  

Saying all the ritviks are evil is also not helping other people come to the process. There are many nice ritviks and you are evidently lumping in all of them as evil. Of course there are evil people everywhere, but we cannot lump in all of them. There are also nice GBC people, and some of them write me nice questions, and read my blog etc. 

I thus do not say all GBC people are evil, because they aren't. If I say all the ritviks are evil, and all the GBC people are evil, no one would ever read my blog and I could not help anyone. There are good and evil people in every situation, that does not mean all of them are evil.   

MD: You can abandon an old ship captured by pirates and board a modern, modernized one, adapted to modern times.

PD: We are re-establishing the original system.

MD: Another thing ritviks and the GBC have in common is that they turn sastra into a prison or use it to create prison-like conditions for their followers, ultimately making it easier for them to control them. Sastra is more flexible and understanding, addressing each situation with specific instructions.

PD: Well you are also preaching from shatra and also making the same prison? Anyone who preaches shastra is making a prison? Worse. They do not need shastra, just sva-self help, with no help from us? To say that citing shastra makes a prison -- and they should just sva-self realize with no help, has nothing to do with Srila Prabhupada's instructions. He said it is our duty to help others realize Krishna.   

Anyway! You are also controlling people with your own preaching. Preaching means -- you are controlling another persons perceptions and understanding. If you are not helping control their understanding, then your preaching has no effect. Of course that process can be exploited, but unless you guide a person -- and control their understanding and perceptions -- you cannot make them Krishna bhaktas. 

I have no idea how we are going to preach by saying citing shastra is a prison and we need to tell people to not take any advice from us -- and simply sva-self realize things without any assistance. That is not going to work. 

Our system is working, because it is the original system. We have to help and guide people. And yes, give some sort of control over them, to help them along. If I am going to drag a toddler out of the ditch, I have to take control of the situation. Sorry, that is required to make any progress. You say we are not going to take "control" of the toddler in the ditch, because we are against control of others. OK and then the toddler will stay stuck there. That is not helping anything. It is our duty to take control of lost people and guide them onto the path to Krishna. Otherwise, we are allowing the blind men to fall into the ditch. That is not the process.

ys pd   

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