Hare Krishna!
I’m a new devotee and a hopeful disciple of Srila Prabhupada. I want to thank you so much for your service through all of these years. Your site kept me sane as I first started looking into Krishna Consciousness.
My question is, the recent message from the GBC (10/08/23) regarding initiation really seems to be pulling everything back towards a corporate view of the process. Specifically the wording of initiation: “As a member of Iskcon under the guidance and leadership of the GBC body, I give you initiation in the guru parampara.”
That sounds much more rittvik than anything else. Do you think the dials are starting to turn? I feel that with the success of the Bangalore group they’re getting more and more pressure to welcome in Prabhupadanugas as a mainstream part of their society.
Any thoughts?
=========
PD: Thanks very much for this question. Yes, the GBC has been trying to constrain their renegade "gurus" for quite a long time now, without really admitting their gurus are NOT Srila Prabhupada's successors and pure devotees. Some of them -- like Bhakti Caru swami -- were saying he is giving initiation "on behalf of Srila Prabhupada" -- but then he was being critized by some of the alleged "Uttama" folks -- as being too much of a "ritvik." Meanwhile Trivrikrama swami was also complaining at the GBC meeting -- that all these "GBC lawbook rules for gurus" -- amounts to a de facto ritvik idea -- that these GBC initiators are non liberated agents, proxies or priests -- who need to be monitored and managed by the committee. So yes, the idea that these GBC "initiators" are only proxies and / or agents for SRILA PRABHUPADA and not for themselves, has been simmering for a long time already.
Around 1986 the GBC switched gears from saying their gurus are "Uttama Adikary" pure devotees -- to saying they are advanced Madhyam Adhikary. And some of their Gaudiya Matha advisors, Ravindra swarupa, Mukunda swami and one of their back door position papers writers named Kailasa chandra -- all joined in with the "Madhyam guru" band wagon. Unfortunately, these old guard folks were not really able to name even one good Madhyam from their group, and the deviations just continued, or got worse.
In other words, most devotees were not buying that they are Uttama by the 1986 state, and now they were also not buying they are Madhyam either. Worse, in fact after all the waves of scandals -- it made it look like -- they are not even situated on the Kanistha platform. So the old guard GBC / Gaudiya Matha / Kailasa chandra "Madhyam scheme" was a partial reform, and some sort of back tracking, but it was not believable, or implemented. Never mind Srila Prabhupada says the Madhyam can fall back to material life, and he has insufficient guidance and etc. So even if they could produce a Madhyam, he was not going to be considered as liberated either. So it was another failed speculative reform effort.
But yes, if they are now saying you are a disciple of -- the overall GBC body (or ISKCON itself) -- and not a specific named guru, that is more or less a ritvik idea. That means: they are conditioned soul proxies. And yes, that means they are afraid to name a specific guru -- due to all the scams, scandals, lawsuits, bad media and overall bad baggage most of them have -- including all sorts of connections to various crimes, child mistreatment, and overall mis-managing the society.
When Ramesvara blooped -- and he took a lot of people out of the society, Badrinaryan wrote a paper that all the disciples should be considered as property of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. Of course his idea was never implemented, but the seed was there. For sure that idea has been in the back ground for a long time. Of course that is what we Prabhupadanugas say, the disciple is the property of SRILA PRABHUPADA and his ISKCON society, and not "the initiator."
Then again, since we believe everything belongs to Krishna in the first place, the disciple would have to be the property of Krishna and His Pure Devotee in any case. So it is sort of like slowly squeezing toothpaste out of the tube here, gradually -- the only logical way forward for ISKCON, especially after its long and sordid history of failed Uttamas, failed Madhyams, and even failed Kanisthas, is to go back to square one and accept that the disciples, the buildings, the money, and all of the contents of ISKCON, are factually the property of Krishna and Srila Prabhupada, and not these upstart messiah wanna be folks. That makes all of us proxies or agents and not proprietors.
I think it is heading that way by default. I also have various friends inside ISKCON's institution, a few of them even in higher officies, and they said -- your idea of making Srila Prabhupada the actual guru link to Krishna is accepted by us already, but we cannot show that too much at present of we will be booted out. So the old guard are only hanging on by goonda force and coercion techniques, which wont last. All of these "old guard" people have yet another problem, like the Gaudiya Matha folks, GBC folks, Kailasa chandra and other promoters of their conditioned soul messiahs idea, they are factually getting old themselves. And as they depart, their conditioned soul guru idea is vanishing along with them.
I have many devotee friends and associates, and nearly none of them think the conditioned soul guru idea is ever going to expand and revive much. Many believe -- it is going downhill fast. So our idea is moving along, and thus we are making more and more PRABHUPADANUGA devotees, and that process is increasing. Someone just called me and said, "I cannot ever go back to worshiping another mundane person in an orange robe. I am sticking with Prabhupada forever." And that is the kind of message I am getting more than ever. Krishna allowed these clowns to make a clown guru show. It went on for some time, but now there is little credible belief that worship of conditioned souls is "what Krishna wanted." In fact, it is probably exactly NOT what Krishna wanted.
Anyway, yes, the ISKCON society will have to either catch up to the reality of the situation either volutary, or by the force of the material world making their program crumble more each day. Of course when people leave them, they become candidates to come to us. So for us, it is a win win. And I believe it is also a win win for Srila Prabhupada and Krishna.
A few of the big wheels in ISKCON also want to work more with Bangalore. They see the writing on the wall, the Prabhupadanuga idea is more and more popular, their idea is fading. We also had one of our people move near a GBC program, and they had to ask this person to do service even though he is "a Prahbupadanuga," because they are running out of people. So yes, they will have to work with us at some stage, and it is already starting in stages. Hope this answers your question, ys pd
THIS POST IS SPARKING DISCUSSION
Bhakta Ernest
After Srila Prabhupada departed, ISKCON was turned into "ISKCON," everything was spoiled and it negatively affected practically everybody. As a consequence, what we have now is a "time gap."
“The time gap mentioned by you is inevitable, because the disciplic succession sometimes becomes disconnected, as we find from the Bhagavad-gita. This is the influence of material energy, and to link it up again, it takes some time. That some time may appear to our calculation a big gap, but in relation with the eternal time, it is not even as instant.” -Letter to Rupanuga, 3-14-69
Despite the "time gap," "ISKCON" people thought that the show must somehow go on so they created fake gurus, fake disciples, fake initiations, a fools paradise.
PADA somehow didn't come along with his "ISKCON" brethren, and despite of an obvious "time gap," he decided to create his own show. He wanted pancaratrika initiations, so yes, bring fake ritvik in absentia initiation system so to make fake disciples. Another fools paradise, bravo!
When there is a "time gap," pancaratrika official diksa initiation is not available. One can take shelter of a departed bona-fide Acarya as a siksa-guru, read his books and follow his instructions, worship his murti or picture on an altar along with the picture of panca-tattva. Patiently following this process one can develop enough sincerity and seriousness so that Lord Krishna can then bring him in contact with bona-fide diksa guru in the future.
Srila Prabhupada: Therefore God is called caittya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. And the PHYSICAL SPIRITUAL MASTER is God's mercy. If God sees that you are sincere, He will give you a spiritual master who can give you protection. He will help you from within and without, without in the physical form of spiritual master, and within as the spiritual master within the heart. - Room Conversation with Irish Poet, Desmond O'Grady--May 23, 1974
PADA created an apa-sampradaya, a fools paradise, so he can enjoy it, but at least he shouldn't stick his nose into the business of more honest and more sober devotees like Kailasa Candra prabhu.
PADA: Well yes, Srila Prabhupada says Krishna and the guru are eternal, and not subordinates of the mundane time factor. Things that are subordinates to the mundane time factor are called temporary and more simply -- illusion. So as soon as someone says Krishna and His gurus are eternal, the mundane pasandis will say no, Krishna and His gurus are subject to mundane "time factors."
So this is called atheism. The devotees of Krishna and His successors know that there is no temporary and mundane time factor that influences the worship of persons who are part of eternal time. So these atheists like Kailasa and Ravindra say that Krishna and His gurus are post samadhi, posthumous and post mortem, and that is what Ravindra and his Kailasa clone started to say in 1986. Kailasa became Ravindra's sock puppet and he said he agrees with the GBC, acharyas are post samadhi, posthumous and post mortem because they are mundane and temporary.
Srila Prabhupada says this is called pasandi. Of course Ravindra and Kailasa have a nice replacement for the eternal, they want us to worship their alleged condtioned Madhyam, who is still a conditioned soul. And their alleged eternal guru can become an asura, because they worship things which can be influenced by illusion, or temporary time. So that is the difference between the Vaishnavas and the pasandis, the pasandis equate the temporary with the eternal.
They have always been here, but their reign is only temporary. Whereas Srila Prabhupada says, the people who worship Jesus now are worshiping the eternal, because Krishna and guru are eternal, and that worship is not subordinated to mundane time. So Ravindra and his Kailasa puppet keep promoting that the eternal is post samadhi, posthumous, post mortem, OK just like his mentor Ravindra says.
Ravindra also said we need to worship a Madhyam, who is still conditioned, and then Kailasa became Ravindra's sock puppet on that issue as well. Of course, Kailasa and Ravindra ALSO said the whistleblowers on child mistreatment are bogus drunks, so they could help their child mistreatment regime, which is also mundane and temporary. The worship of the eternal is not a mundane process, but the pasandis do not know this, Srila Prabhupada says -- because they are envious of these eternals. Of course people are now very bewildered why Kailasa keeps saying that when we Prabhupadanugas stop people from eating meat, we are cheating them -- because evidently -- eating meat is a bona fide process? What is that all about? First Kailasa defends child mistreatment, now he evidently defends meat eating? He keeps saying we are bogus drunks for stopping child mistreatment and meat eating. What is wrong with these people? ys pd
Bhakta Ernest
Just see how crooked this PADA is. When it fits his agenda, he promotes the word "posthumous" in regard to Srila Prabhupada, when not, he condemns it.
When it is used as "posthumous edits" of Prabhupada's books, he promotes it, but when used as "posthumous rittvik," he condemns it.
Here is an excerpt written by Lee from his website promoting the term "posthumous" in relation to book edits after Prabhupada's disappearance:
"Meanwhile, other senior devotees like Govinda Dasi and a number of other senior devotees tend to agree with PADA on this issue, posthumous edits are not a good idea:"
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../purujits-newly...
This is what happens when you push a deviation long enough. In an effort to defend it, you become more or less insane.
Here are some more links where Lee and other rittviks promote the word "posthumous" in relation to Srila Prabhupada:
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../re-book-changes...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../ramesvaras-input-not...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../satsvarupa-votes-for...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../why-am-i-looking...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../pada-writes-to...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../srila-prabhupadas...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../editing-of-founder...
https://krishna1008.blogspot.com/.../anuttamas-lawsuit...
https://krishnaconsciousnessmovement.com/?p=10310
https://krishnaconsciousnessmovement.com/?p=15342
https://krishnaconsciousnessmovement.com/?m=20180322
This is what happens when you push a deviation long enough and blaspheme a more advanced, honest and serious devotee, you become more or less insane.
PADA: Bhakta Ernest Yes, so Kailasa is saying we cannot worship the eternal, we have to worship Ravindra's madhyam, who is a conditioned soul. Kailasa wants to make sure children are worshiping people who can become demons. Why does Kailasa want children to worship people who can become demons?
Why does Kailasa always agree with the GBC? And he also says that anyone who worships the eternal, and does not worship a person who can become a demon, is a deviant. Why is worship of the eternal a deviation and worship of the people who can become demons a good plan? Why does Kailasa agree with the GBC on every issue, including, that challenging child mistreatment is done by the drunks?
Yes, we had to use the term "posthumous edits" of a famous author as not bona fide for the legal court case, which is why Kailasa says that the people who got the original books in the court case are scum bags, because he did not want us to have originals. Yes, we had to use the term "posthumous edits" for the karmi courts legal issue, but Kailasa did not even want us to have any originals. Now Kailasa is confusing karmi courts legal terms with spiritual terms.
Yes, in courts we have to use the term posthumous edits, and now Kailasa is against us having success on that front as well? Notice that Kailasa cannot distinguish a mundane court legal term with a spiritual one. So Srila Prabhupada says we have to worship the eternal, Kailasa says worship of the eternal is post mortem, because that is pasandi, and it has nothing to do with the legal case for the books.
But yes, we won the case and posthumous edits is the legal term you have to use to win such a case, but that does not mean Krishna and His acharyas are post mortem? Wow, Kailasa thinks legal court terms are superior to Vedic terms. But after all, he worships the post mortem God and guru, what would you expect? Now Kailasa says anyone who does not worship people who can become asuras, is more or less insane. So we should worship Kailasa's asuras gurus, who can -- and do -- become sexual predators and drunks? Why would we want that? Yes, a karmi lawsuit term is not a spiritual process, amazed Kailasa does not know that? Nope. Doesn't Kailasa realize his plan to have people worship persons who can become demons has resulted in thousands of child mistreatment cases? Well we have realized this. When are you going to answer the basic question, why does Kailasa want children to worship people who can become demons, and not worship pure devotees? ys pd
Bhakta Ernest
As usual, insane rumbling and spinning the truth. I have not quoted any legal document where you used the term "posthumous," I quoted your comments from your website where it was absolutely no necessity to use the "posthumous" terminology. But you used it repeatedly, and that shows your hypocrisy.
May be a graphic of text that says 'Meanwhile, other senior devotees like Govinda Dasi and a number of other senior devotees tend to agree with PADA on this issue, posthumous edits are not a good dea:'
PADA: Bhakta Ernest Well yeah, we use the term because we want everyone to know how to deal with this legally because they should be armed with that understanding. "Posthumous edits" is how we won the case, and others should follow our lead. But a legal term is not a spiritual one.
Anyway, so Kailasa does not want children to worship a pure devotee, because that is worship of the post mortem, and he wants our ISKCON children to worship persons who can become demons. And the reason he wants children to worship persons who can become demons is because his mentor Ravindra does.
Why does Kailasa say that God and Guru are post mortem, and we need to have our children worship persons who can become asuras? Children need to worship people who can become demons is actually a very old concept, it was part of the occult of the medieval times and was even found when Krishna was here. And when is Kailasa going to explain his plan to have children worship people who can become demons after 45 years? The Kailasa plan is -- a peril to children everywhere. No wonder Kailasa said we are drunks when we exposed his agenda, to make children worship persons who are or who can become -- demons. I think we are on to your agenda by now, and so are many others. ys pd
================
Prayer to Srimati Radharani during Karttika by Sri Raghunatha Dasa Goswami.
Sri Sri Govardhana Vasa Prarthana Dasakam
Sri Raghunatha Dasa Goswami
TRANSLATION
Sri SriGovardhana Vasa PrarthanaDasakam
Sri RaghunathaDasaGoswami
1. O Govardhana Hill! Held by the staff-like arm of your personal Master, You became an umbrella to destroy the pride of Devendra, the intoxicated, bold and arrogant one. Thus, O Govardhana, You are the incomparable King of mountains. And You are so dear to me, so please give me residence near You!
2. O Govardhana! Please grant me residence near You, so I can get a chance to see the youthful Divine Couple, Radha-Govinda, as They enthusiastically enjoy maddening amorous pastimes in Your many caves.
3. O Govardhana! In great delight, Krishna, Balarama and the cowherd boys play many games in Your plentiful valleys, caves, waterfalls, the hollows of Your trees, on the peaks of Your hills, and Your incomparable bejeweled thrones. O Govardhana! You are so dear to me, so please give me residence near You!
4. O Govardhana! By manifesting as the splendorous and fragrant blue stone platforms at Dana Ghati, You witness the tax lila of Radha-Krishna—the youthful Divine Couple and the ocean of rasa. Thus You increase the ecstasy of all rasikaVaisnavas! O Govardhana! Please give me residence near You!
5. O Govardhana! You affectionately and secretly embrace the neck of Your dearest friend, the unprecedented Radhikakunda, the beloved of Hari. O Govardhana! Please give me residence near You, so I can see the confidential pastimes of the youthful Divine Couple!
6. O Govardhana! The full meaning of Your name, “sustainer of the cows” is established by Your many shady trees and pasture lands full of succulent grass. Alas! At every moment and with their every step the cows are being fully nourished by You. Thus You are famous throughout the three worlds. O Govardhana! Please give me residence near You!
7. O Govardhana! Agha/Bakaripu honored You immensely by engaging You as a new home for the Gosthavasis to protect them from the sustained anger of SurapatiIndra. Please give me residence near You!
8. O Girinrpa! Because the nectar of your name as “Haridasavarya” arose from the moonlike mouth of Sri Radhika, and was recorded in the Srimad Bhagavatam (10.21.18), You are famous in the Vedas as the navatilaka of Vraja. O Govardhana! Please give me residence near You!
9. O Govardhana! You are a dear friend of Radha-Krishna and Their families. And You give special happiness to all the Vrajavasis, and the hosts of animals and birds attached to You. Out of Your immeasurable mercy and sweetness, O Govardhana, please accept this tired and unhappy one and give him residence near you.
10. O Govardhana! Although I am certainly vile and deceitful, Your dearmost, endlessly merciful Sri Sacinandana has offered You to me. Without considering whether I am qualified or not, O Govardhana, please give me residence near You!
Final Blessing Verse (phala-sruti)
By carefully reciting these ten rasa-bestowing verses praising Sri Govardhanaji, the beautiful ruling Master of all mountains, one will quickly obtain a blissful residence here, and the most auspicious jewel of Radha-GovindaYugala’s direct blissful seva.” (trans: mmgd)
Sri Girirjadharana teri sarana ki jai! Giriraja Baba ki jai ho!
Sri Raghunatha Dasa Goswami ki jai! Jai Jai Sri Radhe!
No comments:
Post a Comment
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.