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PURUJIT PLAGARIZED MUKUNDA UK!
We not only were the first to publish Sulochana's book online, I was the person who donated funds to print hard printed copies before there was an internet. Mukunda copies and pastes our stuff all the time, of course so do lots of others. I am not complaining really, but if someone is the number one thief of other people's stuff, do not complain when someone steals from you. "A thief calling another thief a thief." Comical!
A Dark Chapter of ISKCON History
There are devotees who are vehemently opposed to allowing their Godsisters full access to Bhakti. They propose narrowly defining how Vaishnavis can engage in service to Guru and Gauranga. We continue to receive reports from around the world about behavior, attitudes and instructions that oppose the full engagement of Vaishnavis in services that match our talents and propensities. You will find other papers on this site that document how Srila Prabhupada engaged Vaishnavis in various roles including, leadership, public preaching, management and deity worship.
In this paper, you will find some of the history of the attempts to limit Vaishnavis’ services. This article appeared on the Vaishnava News Network (VNN) on November 18, 1998 here:
http://vaishnava-news-network.org/world/WD9811/WD18/2521.html
In 1998, several devotees had formed a private conference on COM called GHQ (for General Headquarters). After the editorial opening, you will find the actual emails sent on the conference. The emails reveal an intention to mislead others about their real agenda and a deep disdain for Vaishnavis. Be warned: hatred, name-calling, character assault, and other unsavory qualities predominate the messages shared by the GHQ conference members.
Not everyone listed in the GHQ emails was a supporter of the GHQ agenda. Others may have changed their views over time. But you will recognize the names of some who remain active in opposing participation in ISKCON by Vaishnavis. Perhaps this paper will give their current actions some needed context.
We seek to counter hatred with knowledge. Please contact the Vaishnavi Ministry if you would like to know more about this topic.
Conspiracy To Terminate The ISKCON Women’s Ministry
By Ardhabuddhi dasa
USA, Nov 18 (VNN) — On September 28, 1998, a secret COM conference called GHQ was launched by a small group of men known to oppose the ISKCON Women’s Ministry. Originally organized by Shyamasundara (the astrologer), the goal of this conference was to turn back the clock on the recent progress made by ISKCON Vaisnavis in their struggle to be recognized as individuals with the right to serve guru and Krsna according to their propensities.
ys pd
========
THE INFAMOUS ISKCON GHQ
ISKCON's MISOGYNY LEADERS
PADA: Starting around the mid-1990s, when the internet was just started going on a wider scale, PADA was exposing that there was a considerable amount of child abuse going on -- in and around ISKCON. And no small amount of manhandling of women too.
And one of the groups we wrote to was: the ISKCON COM or PAMMHO network. And how did you guess, we got blocked almost immediately.
Meanwhile the female account admin of my Los Angeles internet service provider at the time was getting threats of violence (she was a 95lbs. teeny lady in Los Angeles). She showed me the threatening messages (OK no doubt GBC people) and she said "I could have them arrested using the FBI, but I do not have time to waste on a**-holes like them." Hee hee, she thought the GBC people were a**-holes not worth the time of day to respond to.
Of interest, she was a 95lbs. teeny female. And she was ready, able and willing to fight with all of the combined GBC "kshatriya men" put together. She thought they were a bunch of foolish goonda wanna-bes. And so it has gone on from there, we keep getting help from female internet helpers, female devotees, female media folks and etc.
So PADA will easily accept female bodied folks as our help mates because, well for starters, they are just as much as part of Krishna as me. Why would I not employ their services? So yeah, that internet admin lady was a kick a** fighter, more fight worthy than 500 ISKCON kshatriya men combined. And she did kick their a** big time.
Meanwhile, as we were exposing the mass child mistreatment process, a gang of GBC ilk folks started "The Men's GHQ," where they were complaining women were trying to gain a foothold of influence in ISKCON. Some of these women were called: non-traditionalists, feminists, femi-nazis, dykes, guru wanna-bes, politicians, and a host of other ill names.
Ok the GHQ idea was, we have to suppress these ladies and their influence (and suppress PADA too). Right, and that means, to depress the females -- in order to forward and promote the GBC's misogynist / homosexual / pedophile / lusty dog / messiah's project. Same reason the GBC people threatened my internet admin lady.
We have to stop these females from upsetting our illicit sex with men, women and children messiah's project, which bans, beats, molests, sues and -- kills Vaishnavas. So the GBC ilk were suppressing me, and these ladies, all at the same time.
Are women maya? Well yup, at least for some of the people some of the time. However, maybe that maya can be avoided, sometimes not avoided. But a full on violent homosexual and pedophile messiah's cult -- backed full time -- all the time -- by nearly all -- or maybe all -- of the cult's admin leaders -- cannot be avoided at any time, if you are in their cult, or living on the premises of said cult.
Rather oddly, after we got the child abuse lawsuit going, the GBC guys doubled down on supporting the Mayapur "Auschwitz for kids" program. And that is why Danavir, Basu Ghosh, Dayaram and other Jayapataka fan club people like Bhakti Vikas swami joined the GHQ. Worse, they wanted to add Bhakti Vidya Purna swami, a Mayapur child beater and defender of the pedophile guru program in Mayapur, as the GHQ's advisor.
And the usual suspects were GHQ members:
Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN), Bhakti Vikasa Swami (Salem IN), Bhanu Swami (Madras – IN), Danavir das Goswami (USA), Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur – IN), Goloka Candra (das) JPS (Malaysia), Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL – USA), Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat – IN), Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS, Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario – CAN), Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore – USA), Prithu (das) ACBSP, Rasananda Swami (USA), Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA), Svavasa (das) ACBSP (NA-BBT), Trivikrama Swami (Florida USA), Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur – IN), [Florida Vedic College: Mahabuddhi Randy Stein?] and evidently, Ameyatma Dasa. But others were added and / or contributed. OK same gang that was having me banned from ISKCON, banned from the COM, and whose program we had to have sued for $400,000,000 for mass child abuse etc.
In sum, when PADA (and some mothers) were trying to address the child abuse, women abuse and so on, these guys were plotting to check and stop our efforts. And worse, to bring forward Bhakti Vikas swami, Dayarama, Bhakti Vidya Purna and other fan club members of Mayapur's Auschwitz for kids project.
Sulochana said these people are anti-women, anti-children, and anti-married householders, and that is why they had to get rid of him. In any case, these alleged macho-men could not stand up to the molester messiahs project, and they ended up being direct or indirect cheer leaders for the molester messiahs project, and that is how things go to where they are now.
But New Vrndavana had a lot of the same things going on, lots of "macho kshatriya men," defending the pooja of a homosexual pedophile posing as a messiah. And Jane Wallace (a woman) said this New Vrndavana is pedophile heaven, and she would have physically removed Kirtanananda from his seat herself, if he had been in her church. So yeah, give me some women warriors to help me, and I will gladly accept their help.
What a lot of these macho men seem to forget, they all came from the body of -- a woman. And they hold a grudge against women, which my gay San Francisco friends told me -- is what happens with some gay men. Most of them like women, but some of them despise women and see them as competitors. And that explains the war on women in ISKCON? Maybe so. Anyway, hats off to all the females who have helped PADA over the years. They did more than 500 ISKCON men ever could have done. Bravo! ys pd angel108b@yahoo.com
GHQ LEADER
A Dark Chapter of ISKCON History
Introduction
In 1998, several devotees formed a private email conference called GHQ, for General Headquarters. They considered themselves in a state of war against feminism. Although they apparently lacked even a definition of feminism, what was clear was their pathological anti-women belligerence.
Another reason to explore their communications is that the same attitudes resonate unchanged today, only vastly amplified by the development of technology and their capturing more prestigious positions. What started as something secretive and small, is affecting today the worldwide International Society for Krishna Consciousness – in many ways, subtle and gross.
The reading of these posts will likely be unpleasant. It will show that below a thin veneer of “Vedic” and “varnasrama,” and “tradition” often lie a lot of unresolved psychological issues; a lot of unprocessed pain; a lot of misery and spitefulness. A lot of hatred. The underlying drive: unresolved pathological obsessions with the female body; emotional deprivation, and lack of inner development.
It is said that "even the devil can cite scripture" – but these people are not devils. They are damaged individuals, incapable of productively processing their pain, unaware of the dark roots of their feelings. A more apt version of the saying would be: “Even the injured can quote dharma-sastra.”
They talk sooooo much about “women protection” but is this the way to protect women, by calling them feminazis, whores, and prostitutes? Is that the platform of benevolence from which true protectors think, speak, and act? How can you protect someone you dread, you fear, you despise? Are these the men heralding a ‘golden age’ or provoke a ‘dark age’ of Vaisnavism?
Everything seems to indicate that’s much more likely the second. And so I am exposing them, because it should become public knowledge that their place is on the psychoanalyst couch, not at the helm of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
In 1998, several devotees formed a private email conference called GHQ, for General Headquarters. They considered themselves in a state of war against feminism. Although they apparently lacked even a definition of feminism, what was clear was their pathological anti-women belligerence.
You may think that digging into a 28-old private conference and fishing out embarrassing snippets is a mean thing to do. But these are historical accounts and, in one sense, “court documents” to evaluate these devotees’ behavior.
Another reason to explore their communications is that the same attitudes resonate unchanged today, only vastly amplified by the development of technology and their capturing more prestigious positions. What started as something secretive and small, is affecting today the worldwide International Society for Krishna Consciousness – in many ways, subtle and gross.
The protagonists have maintained their vitriolic mood against women empowerment and so this series is very much relevant today, or even MORE relevant today as some of the members of GHQ have expanded their influence and followings. To their nebulous schemes they have added some concrete threats to the unity of ISKCON (mafia-style).
The reading of these posts will likely be unpleasant. It will show that below a thin veneer of “Vedic” and “varnasrama,” and “tradition” often lie a lot of unresolved psychological issues; a lot of unprocessed pain; a lot of misery and spitefulness. A lot of hatred. The underlying drive: unresolved pathological obsessions with the female body; emotional deprivation, and lack of inner development.
It is said that "even the devil can cite scripture" – but these people are not devils. They are damaged individuals, incapable of productively processing their pain, unaware of the dark roots of their feelings. A more apt version of the saying would be: “Even the injured can quote dharma-sastra.”
They talk sooooo much about “women protection” but is this the way to protect women, by calling them feminazis, whores, and prostitutes? Is that the platform of benevolence from which true protectors think, speak, and act? How can you protect someone you dread, you fear, you despise? Are these the men heralding a ‘golden age’ or provoke a ‘dark age’ of Vaisnavism?
Everything seems to indicate that’s much more likely the second. And so I am exposing them, because it should become public knowledge that their place is on the psychoanalyst couch, not at the helm of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.
One of the purposes of the Vaishnavi Ministry is to preserve Srila Prabhupada’s legacy as well as the history of our ISKCON society. Srila Prabhupada engaged both Vaishnavas and Vaishnavis in active service. We fully support the glorious role of Vaishnavis as mothers, wives, nurturers and caretakers. We also recognize that each devotee is an individual with different talents and propensities. The personal experience of his disciples is that Srila Prabhupada granted Vaishnaivis facility for all services.
There are devotees who are vehemently opposed to allowing their Godsisters full access to Bhakti. They propose narrowly defining how Vaishnavis can engage in service to Guru and Gauranga. We continue to receive reports from around the world about behavior, attitudes and instructions that oppose the full engagement of Vaishnavis in services that match our talents and propensities. You will find other papers on this site that document how Srila Prabhupada engaged Vaishnavis in various roles including, leadership, public preaching, management and deity worship.
In this paper, you will find some of the history of the attempts to limit Vaishnavis’ services. This article appeared on the Vaishnava News Network (VNN) on November 18, 1998 here:
http://vaishnava-news-network.org/world/WD9811/WD18/2521.html
In 1998, several devotees had formed a private conference on COM called GHQ (for General Headquarters). After the editorial opening, you will find the actual emails sent on the conference. The emails reveal an intention to mislead others about their real agenda and a deep disdain for Vaishnavis. Be warned: hatred, name-calling, character assault, and other unsavory qualities predominate the messages shared by the GHQ conference members.
Not everyone listed in the GHQ emails was a supporter of the GHQ agenda. Others may have changed their views over time. But you will recognize the names of some who remain active in opposing participation in ISKCON by Vaishnavis. Perhaps this paper will give their current actions some needed context.
We seek to counter hatred with knowledge. Please contact the Vaishnavi Ministry if you would like to know more about this topic.
Conspiracy To Terminate The ISKCON Women’s Ministry
By Ardhabuddhi dasa
USA, Nov 18 (VNN) — On September 28, 1998, a secret COM conference called GHQ was launched by a small group of men known to oppose the ISKCON Women’s Ministry. Originally organized by Shyamasundara (the astrologer), the goal of this conference was to turn back the clock on the recent progress made by ISKCON Vaisnavis in their struggle to be recognized as individuals with the right to serve guru and Krsna according to their propensities.
The men appear to have been inspired by their discussions on the COM conference “Dharma of Women” (recently strategically renamed “Dharma of Men and Women”) in which they tried to explain many current ISKCON problems as being due to women not acting according to Vedic principles. These men have been known to selectively use quotes by Srila Prabhupada, Manu Samitha and Chanakya Pandit to blame everything from divorce to wife abuse on the women’s attitudes and behaviors.
As illustrated in the following statement made by Shyamasudara in a letter to Jasomatinandana, it is obvious that they considered themselves to be in a state of war. In an early text, Shyamasundara wrote: “We are seriously organizing a counteroffensive against the feminists who are a plague in our movement. We need your help. We have set up a central command post and are seeking out devotees who can help in this mission.” (see below for full text)
As of mid September, this conference consisted of a core of up to 17 men, plus other sympathizers who were brought into the discussions on an “as-needed” basis.
As can be seen in the first text below, they used their secret conference to brainstorm strategies to terminate the women’s ministry (including many discussions on whether these efforts should concentrate on damaging the reputations of Vaisnavi leaders or of the male ISKCON leaders who support the women’s ministry), share research, collect dossiers of “dirt” on opponents in an effort to discredit them, pre-empt women’s concerns by pretending to care about their protection, strategize how to get women to lose their cool on COM while they themselves appeared as gentlemen, identify high level supporters/ ambivalent leaders /opponents, get feminism declared a form of atheism or mayavada philosophy, organize campaigns to protest official statements by the Women’s Ministry etc. Their ultimate goal was (and still is) to write a proposal to the GBC to terminate the women’s ministry and to limit service opportunities for ISKCON Vaisnavis.
The members spent considerable time trying to identify possible GBC level supporters and opponents (see COM text 1737640 below). Using the analogy of “triage” in war, in which medical personnel have to quickly identify soldiers whose injuries are treatable vs. life-threatening. Shyamasundara proposed dividing ISKCON leaders into 3 categories, namely: “1) Pro-Vedic, 2) Unidentified or loyalty unknown at this time, and 3) Purvapakshin.” Efforts were made to enlist the members in the first category in support of their upcoming proposal. In Shyamasundara’s words “Those in group 2 should be preached to vigorously so that they support us or show their colors.” In contrast, “Purvapakshins” should be discredited or simply ignored.
One of the much-discussed strategies in the GHQ focused on how to pre-empt the legitimate concerns of ISKCON vaisnavis. The most popular strategy for accomplishing this is illustrated in the following quote from one of their texts: “as a tactic (following BSST in the brahmana and vaishnava debate) put their concern as our first concern. Then we put the second concern to show how to deal with the first concern in reality. What do you all think? Before they jump in and show fingers to us as if we are abusing the women, we point fingers at the men and deal with this. So now they have nothing to point fingers at.”
This quote clearly shows that these men are not genuinely interested in women’s concerns but that they would simply use calls for the protection of women to advance their own cause, i.e. control of women.
Many of the GHQ texts were also devoted to discussing the members’ public replies to different COM texts. One of the most discussed such texts involved a letter written by Jasomatinandana, in which he criticized Malati’s GBC appointment. Although no GHQ members appeared capable of realizing why mainstream devotees had been offended by Jasomatinandana’s text, they agreed that it might be best if they tone down future attacks for tactical reasons. They also spent a fair amount of time analyzing and criticizing men who appeared to support the objectives of the women’s ministry. The following statement by Jivanmukta (in response to a letter written by Hari Sauri in support of Malati) illustrates clearly the tone of such texts. Jivanmukta wrote (see below for full text) “It is men like Hari Sauri that are at the root of our problems. It is men like him that undermine a husband’s authority over his wife. Instead of seizing the moment to preach to her and show her the path of dharma, how she should follow her prescribed duty etc. he wimps out and encourages her! Who said this guy is on our side anyway? He is a total embarrassment!”
In the initial conference texts, the GHQ members were more freely showing their true color and frequently referred to ISKCON women as “obnoxious”, “feminazis” and even as not having souls, to the “ISKCON Women’s Ministry” as the “ISKCON Whore Ministry” and to the “International Women’s Conference” as the “International Witches Conference”. In one text, Shyamasundara asked Jaya Tirtha Caran “How do you feel about the feminists in ISKCON?”. JTC replied “Mmmmmmmm! I must admit although they appear to be spirit souls like those of us either wearing male or female bodies, in actually they have no soul. Yes, you guessed it, I really can’t stand them, …” (see below for full text).
In later texts, the men appear to have realized that by showing their true feelings so openly on the conference, they may also later inadvertently slip up and use these offensive labels in public. They therefore devised a system of referring to their opponents either as “purvapakshins” or by their initials only. Since this change was only tactical and cosmetic, it appears clear that we cannot take seriously any claims made by these men that they are interested in bringing back “Vedic culture” to ISKCON.
Some of the conference members appear to be very skilled in the art of deception. For example, Vidvan Gauranga writes (in response to a question of whether he feels up to debating Sudharma and Pranada of the women’s ministry): “No I am not afraid of being intimidated. I am just playing the same game they are playing. They try to get support by saying “Ah! we are called feminazis!” etc. So I am also crying out, “Ah! I am called a woman-hater! Ah!” hi hi hi When you fight, you have to use the same kind of weaponry that the opponent uses.” He also explained to a concerned fellow GHQ member why he had expressed faith that the Women’s Ministry was “doing something to stop feminist preaching”. VG replied to this concern in the following way: “I have to say like that because only then will they start listening to us. Otherwise, they will turn a deaf ear to us, even if we speak in accordance with Prabhupada, Sadhu and Sastra. They are women, so you have to be emotional, sensitive and diplomatic with them. To NOT do so, I opine, is not strategic.”
Although the GHQ members typically insist that opponents always quote sastra, they seem to hold themselves to a somewhat lower standard:
Shyamasundara wrote: “A man of sense only trifles with them [women], plays with them, humors and flatters them, as he does with a sprightly and forward child; but he neither consults them about, nor trusts them with, serious matters.” Earl of Chesterfield.
To which Vidvan Gauranga replied:
“Good stuff. Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja told me the same thing.”
2) The allies who we forge through our lobbying. They are the ones who will use our ammunition to convince others.
We need both to be successful. I don’t think getting allies will be very difficult, practically everybody I’ve mentioned it to was very enthusiastic. The vast silent majority of devotees, are fed up and sick of these feminists. But they have felt isolated because of thinking they were alone because of the volume of the feminist rhetoric.
MAHA: a collection of quotations from Srila Prabhupada and the sastras arranged in appropriate topics. Plus essays by devotees on selected topics. The subject for these topics has been given by Jivanmukta. However we still need some devotees to take up some writing assignments. I have volunteered for one, but that will not be enough.
LAGHU: a short four or five page, concise presentation to the GBC. We need to discuss what the contents of this presentation is going to be, because on the basis of this presentation we shall sink or swim. The topics have to be very skillfully chosen and presented if we want to have a chance with the GBC who are very busy. If we do this correctly it will go in like a needle, and out like a plow.
Nagaraja, Editor BTG
Obviously this is not an exhaustive list. Some names may be added or changed from one list to another.
Regarding Virabahu and Svavas Prabhu, I would like to ask HH Rasananda Swami Maharaja, since he is in that locale, to please approach them and seek their valuable support to our cause.
These person’s can be approached either directly or via email. It is important to get as much support as possible from the leading devotees in ISKCON if we are to make an impact. Our work of presenting a paper or series of papers will bear more fruit if we have a receptive audience waiting to read it.
Your humble servant
Shyamasundara Dasa
(Text 1737640) ———————————————
Text 1737737 (37 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 02-Oct-98 08:29 +0100
Refernce: Text 1737639 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA)
To: GHQ [52]
Subject: More strategy
————————————————————
To make it balanced several “Do’s” should be included. Any ideas?
Women (and men) to be trained in traditional role models. So far I have identified there are four types of services that are required to fulfill this mission:
Comments: Text 1737635 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA)
Text 1736978 (2 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 01-Oct-98 22:16 +0000
To: GHQ [29]
Subject: Women Preaching
————————————————————
“A woman’s preaching like a dog’s walking on his hind legs. It does not do well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.” Samuel Johnson
(Text 1737625) ———————————————
Text 1737627 (84 lines)
As illustrated in the following statement made by Shyamasudara in a letter to Jasomatinandana, it is obvious that they considered themselves to be in a state of war. In an early text, Shyamasundara wrote: “We are seriously organizing a counteroffensive against the feminists who are a plague in our movement. We need your help. We have set up a central command post and are seeking out devotees who can help in this mission.” (see below for full text)
As of mid September, this conference consisted of a core of up to 17 men, plus other sympathizers who were brought into the discussions on an “as-needed” basis.
These GHQ conference members were:
Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN),
Bhakti Vikasa Swami (Salem IN),
Bhanu Swami (Madras – IN),
Danavir das Goswami (USA),
Dayaram (das) JPS (Mayapur – IN),
Goloka Candra (das) JPS (Malaysia),
Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL – USA),
Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat – IN),
Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS,
Jivan Mukta (das) TSI (Back to Basics) (Ontario – CAN),
Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore – USA),
Prithu (das) ACBSP,
Rasananda Swami (USA),
Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA),
Svavasa (das) ACBSP (NA-BBT),
Trivikrama Swami (Florida USA),
Vidvan Gauranga (das) JPS (Mayapur – IN),
[Florida Vedic College: Mahabuddhi Randy Stein?]
and Ameyatma Dasa.
The group also included Sadhusangananda, TP of ISKCON Boston, although due to his travel schedule, he was not very active initially. Jivanmukta’s wife Sita was the only woman active in these discussions. One of her main roles appears to have been to leak texts from the “International Women’s Conference” on COM to the GHQ members and do search folio for quotes intended to disempower women.
As can be seen in the first text below, they used their secret conference to brainstorm strategies to terminate the women’s ministry (including many discussions on whether these efforts should concentrate on damaging the reputations of Vaisnavi leaders or of the male ISKCON leaders who support the women’s ministry), share research, collect dossiers of “dirt” on opponents in an effort to discredit them, pre-empt women’s concerns by pretending to care about their protection, strategize how to get women to lose their cool on COM while they themselves appeared as gentlemen, identify high level supporters/ ambivalent leaders /opponents, get feminism declared a form of atheism or mayavada philosophy, organize campaigns to protest official statements by the Women’s Ministry etc. Their ultimate goal was (and still is) to write a proposal to the GBC to terminate the women’s ministry and to limit service opportunities for ISKCON Vaisnavis.
The members spent considerable time trying to identify possible GBC level supporters and opponents (see COM text 1737640 below). Using the analogy of “triage” in war, in which medical personnel have to quickly identify soldiers whose injuries are treatable vs. life-threatening. Shyamasundara proposed dividing ISKCON leaders into 3 categories, namely: “1) Pro-Vedic, 2) Unidentified or loyalty unknown at this time, and 3) Purvapakshin.” Efforts were made to enlist the members in the first category in support of their upcoming proposal. In Shyamasundara’s words “Those in group 2 should be preached to vigorously so that they support us or show their colors.” In contrast, “Purvapakshins” should be discredited or simply ignored.
One of the much-discussed strategies in the GHQ focused on how to pre-empt the legitimate concerns of ISKCON vaisnavis. The most popular strategy for accomplishing this is illustrated in the following quote from one of their texts: “as a tactic (following BSST in the brahmana and vaishnava debate) put their concern as our first concern. Then we put the second concern to show how to deal with the first concern in reality. What do you all think? Before they jump in and show fingers to us as if we are abusing the women, we point fingers at the men and deal with this. So now they have nothing to point fingers at.”
This quote clearly shows that these men are not genuinely interested in women’s concerns but that they would simply use calls for the protection of women to advance their own cause, i.e. control of women.
Many of the GHQ texts were also devoted to discussing the members’ public replies to different COM texts. One of the most discussed such texts involved a letter written by Jasomatinandana, in which he criticized Malati’s GBC appointment. Although no GHQ members appeared capable of realizing why mainstream devotees had been offended by Jasomatinandana’s text, they agreed that it might be best if they tone down future attacks for tactical reasons. They also spent a fair amount of time analyzing and criticizing men who appeared to support the objectives of the women’s ministry. The following statement by Jivanmukta (in response to a letter written by Hari Sauri in support of Malati) illustrates clearly the tone of such texts. Jivanmukta wrote (see below for full text) “It is men like Hari Sauri that are at the root of our problems. It is men like him that undermine a husband’s authority over his wife. Instead of seizing the moment to preach to her and show her the path of dharma, how she should follow her prescribed duty etc. he wimps out and encourages her! Who said this guy is on our side anyway? He is a total embarrassment!”
In the initial conference texts, the GHQ members were more freely showing their true color and frequently referred to ISKCON women as “obnoxious”, “feminazis” and even as not having souls, to the “ISKCON Women’s Ministry” as the “ISKCON Whore Ministry” and to the “International Women’s Conference” as the “International Witches Conference”. In one text, Shyamasundara asked Jaya Tirtha Caran “How do you feel about the feminists in ISKCON?”. JTC replied “Mmmmmmmm! I must admit although they appear to be spirit souls like those of us either wearing male or female bodies, in actually they have no soul. Yes, you guessed it, I really can’t stand them, …” (see below for full text).
In later texts, the men appear to have realized that by showing their true feelings so openly on the conference, they may also later inadvertently slip up and use these offensive labels in public. They therefore devised a system of referring to their opponents either as “purvapakshins” or by their initials only. Since this change was only tactical and cosmetic, it appears clear that we cannot take seriously any claims made by these men that they are interested in bringing back “Vedic culture” to ISKCON.
Some of the conference members appear to be very skilled in the art of deception. For example, Vidvan Gauranga writes (in response to a question of whether he feels up to debating Sudharma and Pranada of the women’s ministry): “No I am not afraid of being intimidated. I am just playing the same game they are playing. They try to get support by saying “Ah! we are called feminazis!” etc. So I am also crying out, “Ah! I am called a woman-hater! Ah!” hi hi hi When you fight, you have to use the same kind of weaponry that the opponent uses.” He also explained to a concerned fellow GHQ member why he had expressed faith that the Women’s Ministry was “doing something to stop feminist preaching”. VG replied to this concern in the following way: “I have to say like that because only then will they start listening to us. Otherwise, they will turn a deaf ear to us, even if we speak in accordance with Prabhupada, Sadhu and Sastra. They are women, so you have to be emotional, sensitive and diplomatic with them. To NOT do so, I opine, is not strategic.”
Although the GHQ members typically insist that opponents always quote sastra, they seem to hold themselves to a somewhat lower standard:
Shyamasundara wrote: “A man of sense only trifles with them [women], plays with them, humors and flatters them, as he does with a sprightly and forward child; but he neither consults them about, nor trusts them with, serious matters.” Earl of Chesterfield.
To which Vidvan Gauranga replied:
“Good stuff. Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja told me the same thing.”
PADA: Bhaktividya Purna Maharaja was at the time (1998) growing his influence in Mayapur, and evidently he was engaged in SEVERELY mistreating children himself. And he was allegedly suppressing children's complaints of abuse.
At the same time (also 1998) PADA was starting to complain about all the mistreatment of ISKCON's children -- including in BVP's Mayapur and other places -- as was posted in our newsletters.
We also began reporting on the suicides of victims. It is amazing that these ISKCON folks have been citing the child mistreating perps, culprits, and criminals, indeed the generals in charge of Auschwitz for kids, as their authority. Yeah, the leaders of Auschwitz for kids -- and their allies -- would want to have women's voices suppressed. Because the women are the main ones complaining about what is happening to their children! No kidding! The beatings will continue until morale improves.
And these are the same men who are currently bashing their opponents all over COM for even daring to use “logic and common sense” if this process does not involve quoting sastra.
In an ironic twist of fate, the conference organizers must have had some kind of insight into the devious nature of their scheme. During the last days of the conference, one member commented that the “COM Gods” may not be pleased by their efforts and might thus arrange to have them exposed. The conference was therefore recently taken off COM and continued privately.
And these are the same men who are currently bashing their opponents all over COM for even daring to use “logic and common sense” if this process does not involve quoting sastra.
In an ironic twist of fate, the conference organizers must have had some kind of insight into the devious nature of their scheme. During the last days of the conference, one member commented that the “COM Gods” may not be pleased by their efforts and might thus arrange to have them exposed. The conference was therefore recently taken off COM and continued privately.
Unfortunately for the members, this insight came too late. Before the conference went off the air, one of its members had second thoughts. Although he agreed with many of the traditional views expressed by the others, he found their modus operandum to be distasteful and therefore decided to share the plans with Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis worldwide. Although we will respect his wish to remain anonymous, we greatly appreciate the courage he showed by sharing these texts with us.
Selected GHQ texts are presented below, so that the readers can judge the mood of these men for themselves:
Text 1737639 (139 lines)
Selected GHQ texts are presented below, so that the readers can judge the mood of these men for themselves:
Text 1737639 (139 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
To: GHQ [47]
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
To: GHQ [47]
Subject: More strategy
————————————————————
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
Please except my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Continuing on with Maharajas ideas about strategy and tactics:
What exactly are our ultimate objectives? These objectives may go beyond the next GBC meeting. Here is a list of some suggested objectives:
1) No women in leadership positions, this means in GBC, temple presidents, the GBC secretaries, ISKCON officers or spokespersons (such as in ISKCON communications which is heavily dominated by feminists).
2) Terminating the present Woman’s Ministry.
3) The Grhasta Ministry should be an umbrella for the Woman’s Ministry, no previous officers of Woman’s Ministry to hold office in the Grhasta Ministry. This is in keeping with no women in leadership positions.
4) Feminist philosophy to be banned as materialistic, atheistic and mayavada. (We have to demonstrate this.) Any person advocating or propagating feminism in any way, shape, or form to be considered as seriously deviating from Srila Prabhupada teachings, Vaisnava siddhanta, and Vedic culture. They must resign all positions in ISKCON, and leave the movement. They can only return if it can be demonstrated that they are no longer infected with this pernicious disease. (This could be demonstrated by writing a paper refuting feminism, and preaching vigorously against feminism.)
5) All ISKCON media such as COM, Hare Krsna World, ISKCON Communications Journal, etc., censored for feminism.
6) No temple shall host feminist meetings.
7) Women not allowed to give classes or lead kirtanas. (Unless there are no qualified men to do so, only then can they take up these services.)
As I said these are only suggestions. As you can see they constitute mostly “Do Nots”, and one “Do”. To make it balanced several “Do’s” should be included. Any ideas?
How long would this take? We should try to make as big of an impact as possible at the next GBC meeting and hopefully fulfill all of our objectives. But we should be prepared for the long haul.
Membership in GHQ:
As Maharaja pointed out it would become too unwieldy if we had too many members in the forum. Yet at the same time we need a lot of help. One idea would be to form cells. That is, that each member of GHQ form his own contact group, which would be called a “cell”. And each member of the cell would have his own cell in which he would be the leader, and so on. In this way some type of workable command structure can be put into place so that things can get done without excessive discussion. Don’t forget the Italian saying: “fati masqui, parola femina.” Which means: men do; women talk.
So far I have identified there are four types of services that are required to fulfill this mission: researching, writing, editing, and lobbying. Some persons may have more than one of the skills.
RESEARCHERS: to go through Folio, Vedic sastras, and modern feminist and antifeminist literature for relevant quotations. For example it was noted that the Mormons are the fastest-growing religion in the world, yet they decry having women in leadership roles. One of the myths propagated by the feminists in ISKCON is that if we want to attract intelligent women we have to put women in leadership roles. This myth is exploded by the Mormons. Also, if by intelligent women is meant the kind embodied by the leaders of the feminists, we don’t want them. In any case, such references to the Mormons should be looked up.
WRITERS: to put together essays on various topics regarding feminism, and the place of women in Vedic culture.
EDITORS: to skillfully put our literary package together.
LOBBYISTS: to network throughout ISKCON to find support for our cause. Lobbyists should mainly focus on the following groups: GBC’s, Sannyasis, Temple Presidents, senior devotees, Matajis (especially those who are Prabhupada disciples), and devotees who can help as researchers, writers, or editors. They should utilize the principle of Triage and not waste time on those who are obviously feminists.
Our counterattack is composed of two components:
1) Our written presentation which is based on Guru, Sadhu, and Sastra. This is the ammunition.
PADA: You mean the GBC's homosexuals and pedophiles gurus? And their enablers? Yep, their gurus are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children, and these gurus are the ammunition they need to make sure their mistreating women and children continues. And it has.
Please except my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Continuing on with Maharajas ideas about strategy and tactics:
What exactly are our ultimate objectives? These objectives may go beyond the next GBC meeting. Here is a list of some suggested objectives:
1) No women in leadership positions, this means in GBC, temple presidents, the GBC secretaries, ISKCON officers or spokespersons (such as in ISKCON communications which is heavily dominated by feminists).
2) Terminating the present Woman’s Ministry.
3) The Grhasta Ministry should be an umbrella for the Woman’s Ministry, no previous officers of Woman’s Ministry to hold office in the Grhasta Ministry. This is in keeping with no women in leadership positions.
4) Feminist philosophy to be banned as materialistic, atheistic and mayavada. (We have to demonstrate this.) Any person advocating or propagating feminism in any way, shape, or form to be considered as seriously deviating from Srila Prabhupada teachings, Vaisnava siddhanta, and Vedic culture. They must resign all positions in ISKCON, and leave the movement. They can only return if it can be demonstrated that they are no longer infected with this pernicious disease. (This could be demonstrated by writing a paper refuting feminism, and preaching vigorously against feminism.)
5) All ISKCON media such as COM, Hare Krsna World, ISKCON Communications Journal, etc., censored for feminism.
6) No temple shall host feminist meetings.
7) Women not allowed to give classes or lead kirtanas. (Unless there are no qualified men to do so, only then can they take up these services.)
As I said these are only suggestions. As you can see they constitute mostly “Do Nots”, and one “Do”. To make it balanced several “Do’s” should be included. Any ideas?
How long would this take? We should try to make as big of an impact as possible at the next GBC meeting and hopefully fulfill all of our objectives. But we should be prepared for the long haul.
Membership in GHQ:
As Maharaja pointed out it would become too unwieldy if we had too many members in the forum. Yet at the same time we need a lot of help. One idea would be to form cells. That is, that each member of GHQ form his own contact group, which would be called a “cell”. And each member of the cell would have his own cell in which he would be the leader, and so on. In this way some type of workable command structure can be put into place so that things can get done without excessive discussion. Don’t forget the Italian saying: “fati masqui, parola femina.” Which means: men do; women talk.
So far I have identified there are four types of services that are required to fulfill this mission: researching, writing, editing, and lobbying. Some persons may have more than one of the skills.
RESEARCHERS: to go through Folio, Vedic sastras, and modern feminist and antifeminist literature for relevant quotations. For example it was noted that the Mormons are the fastest-growing religion in the world, yet they decry having women in leadership roles. One of the myths propagated by the feminists in ISKCON is that if we want to attract intelligent women we have to put women in leadership roles. This myth is exploded by the Mormons. Also, if by intelligent women is meant the kind embodied by the leaders of the feminists, we don’t want them. In any case, such references to the Mormons should be looked up.
WRITERS: to put together essays on various topics regarding feminism, and the place of women in Vedic culture.
EDITORS: to skillfully put our literary package together.
LOBBYISTS: to network throughout ISKCON to find support for our cause. Lobbyists should mainly focus on the following groups: GBC’s, Sannyasis, Temple Presidents, senior devotees, Matajis (especially those who are Prabhupada disciples), and devotees who can help as researchers, writers, or editors. They should utilize the principle of Triage and not waste time on those who are obviously feminists.
Our counterattack is composed of two components:
1) Our written presentation which is based on Guru, Sadhu, and Sastra. This is the ammunition.
PADA: You mean the GBC's homosexuals and pedophiles gurus? And their enablers? Yep, their gurus are engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children, and these gurus are the ammunition they need to make sure their mistreating women and children continues. And it has.
2) The allies who we forge through our lobbying. They are the ones who will use our ammunition to convince others.
We need both to be successful. I don’t think getting allies will be very difficult, practically everybody I’ve mentioned it to was very enthusiastic. The vast silent majority of devotees, are fed up and sick of these feminists. But they have felt isolated because of thinking they were alone because of the volume of the feminist rhetoric.
It is our business then to give them the weapons which they can then use to fight against feminism. (I would think that it would be a good idea to release our weapon to all our friends and supporters at the same time or perhaps a little before we give it to the GBC. Not too much before we give it too the GBC or it will leak to the feminists who may then have time to try to counter it.)
So one decision we have to make is how many people should be on the forum. Should there be a cutoff point? Or should we just add as needed?
Already many devotees have been suggested for different roles, it may be better if the devotee who suggests that person simply cultivate that person, enthuse them and engage them in the appropriate service, without adding them to the GHQ, unless there is some overriding factor to the contrary, such that their presence on GHQ would be very necessary.
THE WEAPON (sastra can be considered as a weapon, note the “astra” in sastra):
PADA: The weapon these guys use on us whistle blowers is banning, beating, suing and killing. Of course they base this on "shastra." What shastra?
So one decision we have to make is how many people should be on the forum. Should there be a cutoff point? Or should we just add as needed?
Already many devotees have been suggested for different roles, it may be better if the devotee who suggests that person simply cultivate that person, enthuse them and engage them in the appropriate service, without adding them to the GHQ, unless there is some overriding factor to the contrary, such that their presence on GHQ would be very necessary.
THE WEAPON (sastra can be considered as a weapon, note the “astra” in sastra):
PADA: The weapon these guys use on us whistle blowers is banning, beating, suing and killing. Of course they base this on "shastra." What shastra?
The presentation will come in two sizes:
MAHA: a collection of quotations from Srila Prabhupada and the sastras arranged in appropriate topics. Plus essays by devotees on selected topics. The subject for these topics has been given by Jivanmukta. However we still need some devotees to take up some writing assignments. I have volunteered for one, but that will not be enough.
LAGHU: a short four or five page, concise presentation to the GBC. We need to discuss what the contents of this presentation is going to be, because on the basis of this presentation we shall sink or swim. The topics have to be very skillfully chosen and presented if we want to have a chance with the GBC who are very busy. If we do this correctly it will go in like a needle, and out like a plow.
I suggest that one of the subjects of this paper be to show why feminism is very dangerous for Vedic culture. We do not have to go very deep in any of the points which we present. We can simply present the point, develop it a little and then refer to the large presentation for more details. Obviously this paper can be written after the main one is done because we will use the main paper as reference point.
Your servant
Shyamasundara Dasa
(Text 1737639) ———————————————
* Subsequent texts are presented in chronological order to help the readers get a feel for the flow of these discussions. Please note that texts which appear out of order were originally sent as private letters and were only later forwarded to the conference.
Text 1726720 (72 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 28-Sep-98 12:01 +0000
To: GHQ [1]
Subject: We are finally on.
————————————————————
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP.
We are finally on line. It took a while but we did it. There were several theories about the delay , the the sysop’s wife may be a feminist etc, but I think the real reason is because of a combination of the following reasons: there is no assisant sysop thus Raktambara does everything, he also has a partime job, 1/2 the devotees have left Korsnas Gard as a result of the HKS debacle, they are having financial troubles, there is concern for the very future of COM, etc. I think it will stay online, it has become too vital for ISKCON management.
Anyway so far I have added the following members:
Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Rasananda Swami
Basu Ghosh
Jivan Mukta
Krishna Kirti
Guru-Krsna
myself
Please suggest who else should be on board? Possible suggestions:
Jasomatinanda
Sadhusangananda (Boston TP)
Vidvan Gauranga
Prthu
Ameyatma
Dayarama
Bhakti Vidyapurna Swami
Your servant
Shyamasundara Dasa
(Text 1737639) ———————————————
* Subsequent texts are presented in chronological order to help the readers get a feel for the flow of these discussions. Please note that texts which appear out of order were originally sent as private letters and were only later forwarded to the conference.
Text 1726720 (72 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 28-Sep-98 12:01 +0000
To: GHQ [1]
Subject: We are finally on.
————————————————————
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP.
We are finally on line. It took a while but we did it. There were several theories about the delay , the the sysop’s wife may be a feminist etc, but I think the real reason is because of a combination of the following reasons: there is no assisant sysop thus Raktambara does everything, he also has a partime job, 1/2 the devotees have left Korsnas Gard as a result of the HKS debacle, they are having financial troubles, there is concern for the very future of COM, etc. I think it will stay online, it has become too vital for ISKCON management.
Anyway so far I have added the following members:
Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Rasananda Swami
Basu Ghosh
Jivan Mukta
Krishna Kirti
Guru-Krsna
myself
Please suggest who else should be on board? Possible suggestions:
Jasomatinanda
Sadhusangananda (Boston TP)
Vidvan Gauranga
Prthu
Ameyatma
Dayarama
Bhakti Vidyapurna Swami
PADA: Notice Bhakti Vidyapurna swami, one of the prominent ring leaders -- and an allegedly actual child beater / abuser himself -- in the Mayapur Auschwitz for kids project -- is being suggested as a member of the GHQ, and has been cited by a GHQ member as their authority.
We need to suppress women, and push forward our child beating and molesting program's leaders. Otherwise how can our wonderful anal reconstructive surgery epidemic for kids messiah's club continue? Told ya!
I should say from the onset I am not in charge of the forum, I just volunteered to be the organizer for logitical reasons. This I am only the facilitator not the BOSS. Aside from that my health has not been good for the several months and I am have several writing projects to deal with. So I see my involvement as facilitator, giving some suggestions, and possibly writing something on one of the topics mentioned by Jivanmukta. In anycase it is too big a project for one person and we need input from many.
For example Vidvan Guaranga has already written something on the subject. Jasomatinanda Prabhu said he has done some research etc. So we can and should expect to get contributions from various sources.
I should say from the onset I am not in charge of the forum, I just volunteered to be the organizer for logitical reasons. This I am only the facilitator not the BOSS. Aside from that my health has not been good for the several months and I am have several writing projects to deal with. So I see my involvement as facilitator, giving some suggestions, and possibly writing something on one of the topics mentioned by Jivanmukta. In anycase it is too big a project for one person and we need input from many.
For example Vidvan Guaranga has already written something on the subject. Jasomatinanda Prabhu said he has done some research etc. So we can and should expect to get contributions from various sources.
PADA: Yasomatinandan already wrote a letter in 1986 complaining that the GBC has "given Lord Chaitanya the gift of a homosexual acharya for His 500th anniversary."
Why he would go on supporting them after that is a mystery. However, it was known to many leaders that homosexuals and / or pedophiles were being promoted as acharyas by the GBC. One GBC told me he could not protest at Mayapur -- or "Bhavananda's disciples will beat me with bamboo sticks."
Regarding support:
My understanding so far is that the following leading devotees are favorable to our cause:
Hari Sauri Prabhu
Jasomamtinanda Prabhu
Prthu ”
Sivarama Swami
Sridhara Swami
Jayadvaja Swami
Rtadvaja Swami
Niranjana Swami
Keshava Bharti Prabhu
Any others? Possibly they may be asked if they have anything that they would like write or include. I know that Prthu Prabhu is a researcher and writer so he may have something.
Anyway it is time to get the ball rolling.
Your worthless servant
Shyamasundara Dasa
(Text 1726720) ———————————————
Letter COM:1698466 (22 lines)
From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore – USA)
Subject: women & management
————————————————————
What do you all think?
I think that it must be accompanied by some genuine, substantial offer of protection from the “male community.” There are so many women in our movement who have had husbands that have renounced them, for mostly sinful purposes, and then those same men have been tolerated and embraced by our institution. Meanwhile, no one gives a thought for the “stalwart” Prabhu’s suffering former family. ys KKd
My view is that we should not go astray with many different points. We have a goal which is to present to GBC a reasonable paper pointing out the mistake in giving so much freedom to women in our society such as women GBC and on. RS
That is alright. We are coming up with a paper which points out the mistake of giving unrestricted freedom to women. A woman’s dharma is to be under the protection of a male at all phases of her life. The solution we are proposing, therefore, must also address the issue of who will assume responsibility for their protection and what happens if that contract is violated by either her protector or by the woman herself. It is an essential point. ys KKd
(Text COM:1698466) —————————————–
Letter COM:1714977 (38 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 24-Sep-98 10:47
To:
Comment: Text COM:1719236 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN)
Subject: Re: malati’s response
————————————————————
“Purvapakshin” is the best word, as it brings images of a dignified, rather than purely political, opponent. Often, the other party have made most undignified attacks (I was the subject of one of them, on Chakra); but our hope should be that “amanina manadena” on our part will sober them up. We should bring discussion up from the emotional level and oppose them on sastric grounds, on which we are certain to prevail. Slanging matches are fit for uneducated village women. We can’t win on that level.
I’m not suggesting that our presentation should not be strong. But the sastric quotes are in themselves so heavy that we hardly need to add our own expletives. For instance, using Srila Prabhupada’s definition of a prostitute, we can (in polite terms) question the status of re-married Iskcon women. This is certain to get the feminazis highly riled, as they are mostly re-married divorcees, but we can simply cooly again present the Prabhupada quote to them, and not allow them to obfuscate the point with their name-calling.
Letter COM:1719256 (11 lines)
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN)
Daived:
26-Sep-98 00:42)
Reference: Text COM:1717764 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Subject: Re: Mother Malati
————————————————————
After reading such trash consider that the GBC patted themselves on the back by giving her the GBC candidacy. We heard that not all the GBC members voted on it though. Hopefully these individuals will start speaking up against this act of irreligion. When we asked Gopala Krsna Maharaja about it, he said that if it was a wrong decision, then we should have faith that they will change it. But why was it allowed to happen in the first place?!
Because the GBC – our blind uncles – take decisions that are not based on “shastra pramanas”. This ought to be corrected or; yah shastra vidhim utrijya… comes into effect, no?
(Text COM:1719256) —————————————–
Letter COM:1725519 (34 lines)
From: Internet: Sadhu1008@aol.com
Date: 27-Sep-98 23:38
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN) [6269] (received: 28-Sep-98 00:35)
Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA) [5138]
(sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN))
Cc: Jivan Mukta Dasa (sent: 28-Sep-98 00:49)
(sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN))
Comment: Text COM:1725605 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN)
Subject: Essay on women in ISKCON
————————————————————
Pamho. AGTSP.
After having been attacked recently in a somewhat outrageous way by one of the feminist leaders of the movement, and her academic boyfriend, I have taken my time to ‘get into the issue’ again and read hundreds of texts in various women issue related conferences. Since I found yours very balanced, sastrically sound and in general very good I humbly request you to compile a sound essay for the GBC before they get completely swamped with feminist demands and proposals. Currently, the GBC is practically caving in under their pressure, the NA GBC meetings are already controlled by them in an embarrassing way, etc.
If you could take out time for this project, you could do the movement a great favor.
It is interesting to note in this regard that most of the religious movements which are considered the faster growing ones in the world (like the Mormons) don’t put women in leadership positions and they have no problem with that. In fact, they are surprised that we do. In other words the argument that we have to cater to the senses to mundaners, academics, feminists, etc. in order to grow as a movement is simply bogus.
Anyway, so much more could be said, but I just wanted to express my appreciation for your realizations on the matter and hope that you will find time to render a conclusive paper to the movement which is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and helpful for generations to come.
Hope this meets you well.
Y.s. Sadhusangananda das
.
(Text COM:1725519) —————————————–
Letter COM:1729360 (64 lines) [W1]
From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS
Date: 29-Sep-98 09:23
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA) [5193]
Reference: Text COM:1729007 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Comment: Text COM:1731197 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: Re: =>:-)
————————————————————
How do you feel about the feminists in ISKCON? I noted that you had a few sparring matches with Mad Radha.
Shyama
PAMHO., AGTSP.,
Mmmmmmmm! I must admit although they appear to be spirit souls like those of us either wearing male or female bodies, in actually they have no soul.
Yes, you guessed it, I really can’t stand them, and as you may have seen in my chart too, it predicts that I’d have trouble with “these fellows”. To me they defy nature!!! I did start writing a paper on feminism, some years ago, but came to a conclusion that even if one of these arrogant personalities did in fact read it, they’d only use the excuse that I was sexist, or the like.
Are they really in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon, or have they started their own philosophy within Iskcon???
One of my friends summed it up in a similar matter of some indigenous people in New Zealand, whose crime rate, alcohol consumption, domestic violence, etc., far exceeds the others in NZ. He made the point it’s not that I’m racist, I just find a certain kind of behaviour unacceptable. It doesn’t matter what the colour they’re Niggers!!!
In the same way these feminists in my opinion are the ones who due to their transgressing the shy and pure nature of real womanhood, are bringing, and have brought society to above their knees.
We used to have one in our group here, she was a constant pain in the ……., not just for the men, but also for the women too. She ended up misleading a few, but then her husband left her, and she took off to another temple. Now she’s in the process of marrying a REAL eunoch – he’s totally enamoured, and she’s wearing the pants already.
Got to go, it’s getting late.
For God’s sake don’t distribute this to any of them…….! I’ve spent years fighting with these people, and their onesided “libralism”……..!
ys, anonny mouse!!!
P.S. thanks for the Astro-stuff.
(Text 1738398) ———————————————
Text 1737640 (128 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
To: GHQ [48]
Subject: TRIAGE
————————————————————
I am sneding this GHQ so that everyone can see it who didn’t before. I have adjusted the list according to latest news
———- Forwarded Message ———-
TRIAGE
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP
Aside from writing papers which is of vital necessity to present a solid philosophical basis for our platform, we must also organize popular support from the movers and shakers in ISKCON.
In military or emergency medical situations when there are many victims the attending physicians perform Triage. That is, they divide the survivors into three groups:
1. Those that will die no matter what medical care is given. To them some comfort is given so that they die as painlessly as possible. 2. Those who if treated will probably recover. 3. Those who if left alone untreated will survive anyway.
Having done this triage, they then concentrate all their energy on saving those that would die without treatment.
I suggest that we do something similar, that we divide senior or influential devotees into three groups and deal with them differently. The groups are:
1) Pro-Vedic. They are the ones who are for the traditional Vedic relationship between men and women as is enunciated in Srila Prabhupada’s books and is the understanding of the general devotee.
My understanding so far is that the following leading devotees are favorable to our cause:
Hari Sauri Prabhu
Jasomamtinanda Prabhu
Prthu ”
Sivarama Swami
Sridhara Swami
Jayadvaja Swami
Rtadvaja Swami
Niranjana Swami
Keshava Bharti Prabhu
Any others? Possibly they may be asked if they have anything that they would like write or include. I know that Prthu Prabhu is a researcher and writer so he may have something.
Anyway it is time to get the ball rolling.
Your worthless servant
Shyamasundara Dasa
(Text 1726720) ———————————————
Letter COM:1698466 (22 lines)
From: Krishna Kirti (das) HDG (Baltimore – USA)
Subject: women & management
————————————————————
What do you all think?
I think that it must be accompanied by some genuine, substantial offer of protection from the “male community.” There are so many women in our movement who have had husbands that have renounced them, for mostly sinful purposes, and then those same men have been tolerated and embraced by our institution. Meanwhile, no one gives a thought for the “stalwart” Prabhu’s suffering former family. ys KKd
My view is that we should not go astray with many different points. We have a goal which is to present to GBC a reasonable paper pointing out the mistake in giving so much freedom to women in our society such as women GBC and on. RS
That is alright. We are coming up with a paper which points out the mistake of giving unrestricted freedom to women. A woman’s dharma is to be under the protection of a male at all phases of her life. The solution we are proposing, therefore, must also address the issue of who will assume responsibility for their protection and what happens if that contract is violated by either her protector or by the woman herself. It is an essential point. ys KKd
(Text COM:1698466) —————————————–
Letter COM:1714977 (38 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 24-Sep-98 10:47
To:
Comment: Text COM:1719236 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN)
Subject: Re: malati’s response
————————————————————
“Purvapakshin” is the best word, as it brings images of a dignified, rather than purely political, opponent. Often, the other party have made most undignified attacks (I was the subject of one of them, on Chakra); but our hope should be that “amanina manadena” on our part will sober them up. We should bring discussion up from the emotional level and oppose them on sastric grounds, on which we are certain to prevail. Slanging matches are fit for uneducated village women. We can’t win on that level.
I’m not suggesting that our presentation should not be strong. But the sastric quotes are in themselves so heavy that we hardly need to add our own expletives. For instance, using Srila Prabhupada’s definition of a prostitute, we can (in polite terms) question the status of re-married Iskcon women. This is certain to get the feminazis highly riled, as they are mostly re-married divorcees, but we can simply cooly again present the Prabhupada quote to them, and not allow them to obfuscate the point with their name-calling.
Letter COM:1719256 (11 lines)
From: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN)
Daived:
26-Sep-98 00:42)
Reference: Text COM:1717764 by Internet: Jivan Mukta Dasa
Subject: Re: Mother Malati
————————————————————
After reading such trash consider that the GBC patted themselves on the back by giving her the GBC candidacy. We heard that not all the GBC members voted on it though. Hopefully these individuals will start speaking up against this act of irreligion. When we asked Gopala Krsna Maharaja about it, he said that if it was a wrong decision, then we should have faith that they will change it. But why was it allowed to happen in the first place?!
Because the GBC – our blind uncles – take decisions that are not based on “shastra pramanas”. This ought to be corrected or; yah shastra vidhim utrijya… comes into effect, no?
(Text COM:1719256) —————————————–
Letter COM:1725519 (34 lines)
From: Internet: Sadhu1008@aol.com
Date: 27-Sep-98 23:38
To: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN) [6269] (received: 28-Sep-98 00:35)
Cc: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA) [5138]
(sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN))
Cc: Jivan Mukta Dasa (sent: 28-Sep-98 00:49)
(sender: Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN))
Comment: Text COM:1725605 by Basu Ghosh (das) ACBSP (Baroda – IN)
Subject: Essay on women in ISKCON
————————————————————
Pamho. AGTSP.
After having been attacked recently in a somewhat outrageous way by one of the feminist leaders of the movement, and her academic boyfriend, I have taken my time to ‘get into the issue’ again and read hundreds of texts in various women issue related conferences. Since I found yours very balanced, sastrically sound and in general very good I humbly request you to compile a sound essay for the GBC before they get completely swamped with feminist demands and proposals. Currently, the GBC is practically caving in under their pressure, the NA GBC meetings are already controlled by them in an embarrassing way, etc.
If you could take out time for this project, you could do the movement a great favor.
It is interesting to note in this regard that most of the religious movements which are considered the faster growing ones in the world (like the Mormons) don’t put women in leadership positions and they have no problem with that. In fact, they are surprised that we do. In other words the argument that we have to cater to the senses to mundaners, academics, feminists, etc. in order to grow as a movement is simply bogus.
Anyway, so much more could be said, but I just wanted to express my appreciation for your realizations on the matter and hope that you will find time to render a conclusive paper to the movement which is pleasing to Srila Prabhupada and helpful for generations to come.
Hope this meets you well.
Y.s. Sadhusangananda das
.
(Text COM:1725519) —————————————–
Letter COM:1729360 (64 lines) [W1]
From: Jaya Tirtha Charan (das) JPS
Date: 29-Sep-98 09:23
To: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA) [5193]
Reference: Text COM:1729007 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Comment: Text COM:1731197 by Shyamasundara ACBSP
Subject: Re: =>:-)
————————————————————
How do you feel about the feminists in ISKCON? I noted that you had a few sparring matches with Mad Radha.
Shyama
PAMHO., AGTSP.,
Mmmmmmmm! I must admit although they appear to be spirit souls like those of us either wearing male or female bodies, in actually they have no soul.
Yes, you guessed it, I really can’t stand them, and as you may have seen in my chart too, it predicts that I’d have trouble with “these fellows”. To me they defy nature!!! I did start writing a paper on feminism, some years ago, but came to a conclusion that even if one of these arrogant personalities did in fact read it, they’d only use the excuse that I was sexist, or the like.
Are they really in Srila Prabhupada’s Iskcon, or have they started their own philosophy within Iskcon???
One of my friends summed it up in a similar matter of some indigenous people in New Zealand, whose crime rate, alcohol consumption, domestic violence, etc., far exceeds the others in NZ. He made the point it’s not that I’m racist, I just find a certain kind of behaviour unacceptable. It doesn’t matter what the colour they’re Niggers!!!
In the same way these feminists in my opinion are the ones who due to their transgressing the shy and pure nature of real womanhood, are bringing, and have brought society to above their knees.
We used to have one in our group here, she was a constant pain in the ……., not just for the men, but also for the women too. She ended up misleading a few, but then her husband left her, and she took off to another temple. Now she’s in the process of marrying a REAL eunoch – he’s totally enamoured, and she’s wearing the pants already.
Got to go, it’s getting late.
For God’s sake don’t distribute this to any of them…….! I’ve spent years fighting with these people, and their onesided “libralism”……..!
ys, anonny mouse!!!
P.S. thanks for the Astro-stuff.
(Text 1738398) ———————————————
Text 1737640 (128 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
To: GHQ [48]
Subject: TRIAGE
————————————————————
I am sneding this GHQ so that everyone can see it who didn’t before. I have adjusted the list according to latest news
———- Forwarded Message ———-
TRIAGE
Dear Maharajas and Prabhus,
PAMHO AGTSP
Aside from writing papers which is of vital necessity to present a solid philosophical basis for our platform, we must also organize popular support from the movers and shakers in ISKCON.
In military or emergency medical situations when there are many victims the attending physicians perform Triage. That is, they divide the survivors into three groups:
1. Those that will die no matter what medical care is given. To them some comfort is given so that they die as painlessly as possible. 2. Those who if treated will probably recover. 3. Those who if left alone untreated will survive anyway.
Having done this triage, they then concentrate all their energy on saving those that would die without treatment.
I suggest that we do something similar, that we divide senior or influential devotees into three groups and deal with them differently. The groups are:
1) Pro-Vedic. They are the ones who are for the traditional Vedic relationship between men and women as is enunciated in Srila Prabhupada’s books and is the understanding of the general devotee.
2) Unidentified or loyalty unknown at this time.
3) Purvapakshin. Those who favor feminism, and male-female equality.
We should identify all those in group 1 as quickly as possible and rally their support for our cause. Those in group 2 should be preached to vigorously so that they support us or show their colors. Those in group 3, well they are the ones who we are contending with in this ideological war for the future of ISKCON and Vedic Dharma.
So far I have identified the following as members of these three categories.
PRO-VEDIC:
We should identify all those in group 1 as quickly as possible and rally their support for our cause. Those in group 2 should be preached to vigorously so that they support us or show their colors. Those in group 3, well they are the ones who we are contending with in this ideological war for the future of ISKCON and Vedic Dharma.
So far I have identified the following as members of these three categories.
PRO-VEDIC:
Virabahu Prabhu GBC
Svavas Prabhu BBT Trustee and GBC candidate
Hari Sauri Prabhu
Bhakti Caru Swami GBC
Trivikrama Swami GBC
Rtadvaja Swami
Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami
Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Jayadvaja Swami
Jasomatinandana Prabhu
Dayarama Prabhu
Mahabuddhi Prabhu
Keshava Bharti Prabhu
Nirajana Swami GBC
Prthu Prabhu GBC
Danavira Swami
UNIDENTIFIED:
Svavas Prabhu BBT Trustee and GBC candidate
Hari Sauri Prabhu
Bhakti Caru Swami GBC
Trivikrama Swami GBC
Rtadvaja Swami
Bhakti Vidya Purna Swami
Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Jayadvaja Swami
Jasomatinandana Prabhu
Dayarama Prabhu
Mahabuddhi Prabhu
Keshava Bharti Prabhu
Nirajana Swami GBC
Prthu Prabhu GBC
Danavira Swami
UNIDENTIFIED:
Jayadvaita Swami BBT Trustee
Bhakti Tirtha Swami GBC
Radhanatha Swami GBC
Bhanu Swami
Bhakti Marga Swami
Prahladhananda Swami
Badrinarayana Prabhu GBC
Varshana Swami
Hari Vilasa Prabhu GBC
Guru Prasada Swami GBC
Jayapataka Swami GBC
Ravindra Swarupa GBC
Suhotra Swami GBC
Madhusevita Prabhu GBC and BBT Trustee
Vaidyanatha Prabhu GBC
Drutakarma Prabhu
PURVAPAKSHIN:
Bhakti Tirtha Swami GBC
Radhanatha Swami GBC
Bhanu Swami
Bhakti Marga Swami
Prahladhananda Swami
Badrinarayana Prabhu GBC
Varshana Swami
Hari Vilasa Prabhu GBC
Guru Prasada Swami GBC
Jayapataka Swami GBC
Ravindra Swarupa GBC
Suhotra Swami GBC
Madhusevita Prabhu GBC and BBT Trustee
Vaidyanatha Prabhu GBC
Drutakarma Prabhu
PURVAPAKSHIN:
Bir-Krishna Swami GBC
Hrdayananda Swami GBC
Mukunda Swami GBC
Naveen Krsna Prabhu GBC
Hrdayananda Swami GBC
Mukunda Swami GBC
Naveen Krsna Prabhu GBC
Vipramukhya Swami
PADA: Who later comes out saying he is an atheist.
Umapati Swami
PADA: Who was a Mott Steet boy and Kirtanananda's bucket boy, and allegedly was having sex with boys in China, and was suspended by the GBC.
Malati dd GBC
Nagaraja, Editor BTG
PADA: Nagaraj is married to Pranada, who was having affairs with Satsvarupa das Goswami, one of the GBC's alleged messiahs. And a former teacher from SDG's gurukula said "every kid in SDG's gurukula was abused."
Staff at Hare Krsna World
Women’s Ministry including:
Sudharma
Pranada
Rasa Gamya (Naveen’s wife)
Jyotir Mayi dd
Madhusudhani Radha dd
Advaita Prabhu
Women’s Ministry including:
Sudharma
Pranada
Rasa Gamya (Naveen’s wife)
Jyotir Mayi dd
Madhusudhani Radha dd
Advaita Prabhu
Giriraja Swami GBC
PADA: Was allegedly having oral sex in the temple room from a female disciple.
Obviously this is not an exhaustive list. Some names may be added or changed from one list to another.
Regarding Virabahu and Svavas Prabhu, I would like to ask HH Rasananda Swami Maharaja, since he is in that locale, to please approach them and seek their valuable support to our cause.
These person’s can be approached either directly or via email. It is important to get as much support as possible from the leading devotees in ISKCON if we are to make an impact. Our work of presenting a paper or series of papers will bear more fruit if we have a receptive audience waiting to read it.
Your humble servant
Shyamasundara Dasa
(Text 1737640) ———————————————
Text 1737737 (37 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 02-Oct-98 08:29 +0100
Refernce: Text 1737639 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA)
To: GHQ [52]
Subject: More strategy
————————————————————
To make it balanced several “Do’s” should be included. Any ideas?
Women (and men) to be trained in traditional role models. So far I have identified there are four types of services that are required to fulfill this mission:
researching, writing, editing, and lobbying.
I think I could act as a lobbyist. It would probably be more effective for a sannyasi to lobby other sannyasis.
Not too much before we give it too the GBC or it will leak to the feminists who may then have time to try to counter it.)
In the modern age, as soon as something is out, the whole world knows about it. one of the subjects of this paper be to show why feminism is very dangerous for Vedic culture.
This presumes that our leaders are convinced of the need for Vedic culture. I’m not sure that they all are, or that they all have much idea about what it’s about.
JM wrote of the need to show how that, although Srila Prabhupada made concessions for the circumstances he was preaching in, he wanted us to move towards the ideal of Vedic culture. This is a key point and one that will be vigorously contested. It needs to be demonstrated very clearly–our case may rest on it.
I’m off to Russia now. You may or may not hear from me in the next few weeks.
Dasanudasa,
Bhakti Vikasa Swami
(Text 1737737) ———————————————
Text 1738350 (7 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 12:09 +0000
To: GHQ [64]
Subject: Security
————————————————————
Needless to say the texts on ths conference are not to be circulated. “Loose lips sink ships.”
Also for your information this forum is hidden, only members will find it listed on the list of forums not anyone else. No one can see the status of this forum even if somehow they stumbled across it, that way no one would know who is on this forum.
(Text 1738350) ———————————————
Text 1729575 (16 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 29-Sep-98 11:53 +0100
To: GHQ [8]
Subject: Some observations
————————————————————
I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens’ meeting in LA. It presented the rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law.
It should be exposed that the feminists are appealing to a totally non-sastric source: the laws of a demoniac society that supports divorce, homosexuality etc. in the name of “equality” and “rights.”
That members of our movement can be so “off” and get Gbc support for it is frightening. What is more frightening is the possibility that our liberated mothers might throw the karmi law book at us and use the clout of state law to enforce “womens’ rights” in our temples and communities.
It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) “civilization.”
(Text 1729575) ———————————————
Text 1729577 (41 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 29-Sep-98 11:53 +0100
Refernce: Text 1726720 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA)
To: GHQ [10]
Subject: Strategy and action
————————————————————
At this stage a small tight team, all of whose members can invest substantial time, needs to be put together. Too many in the core group will make it unwieldy for the quick action that is required. I’m just heading into the Russian mess and doubt if I will be able to give much time in the next few weeks.
I strongly recommend Vidvan being called in. He is learned and both clear and level headed.
At first, goals and strategies have to be set. Do you intend to establish a beach-head at Mayapur ’99 or will you try to win the whole war? Remember that there will be other major issues on the table.
Quickly define goals and strategies, then get to work fast. Time is of the essence.
Again, I must emphasize my strong feeling that we should keep cool, even when outrageously maligned. Outrageous maligning is standard feminist m.o., but it will not help our cause to respond in the same way. Rather, we should appeal to the intelligence of the Gbc men (who are the ones who have to decide).
We should be especially careful not to alienate Gbc men by condemning them, but should learn from Lord Caitanya the art of politely overcoming opponents by better arguments (as with the Lord’s dealings with Keshav Kashmiri, Sarvabhauma etc.). Maybe we should stop using slighting words like “feminazi” even among ourselves, lest they slip out and further outrage the hot tempered purvapakshins.
Pre-meeting lobbying is essential, starting with Gbc’s who are known to be favorable. I think Shyama would be good for this. As far as I know he is respected and not considered political.
But first the presentation has to be got together. I suggest that there should be two papers: one short and to the point, another like a tome with all kinds of back-up quotes and arguments. Remember that Gbc’s, especially at meeting time, are deluged with papers and simply won’t look at a presentation that is more than a few pages long. But they might look at a paper of 2-4 pages that is well-written and to the point. They won’t give more than a glance at your tome, but it needs to be there for them to see that you are serious and have done your homework.
(Text 1729577) ———————————————
Forwarded text by Krishna-kirti :
In my view, it seems that replying privately to her and others of her ilk is a waste of time. All replies to such letters should be public, even if they request a private reply. Otherwise we are wasting energy.
But anyway, you can see from the above how they argue, and what are their strengths and weaknesses.
One of their weaknesses is that they are deficient in shastra, and long on selectively quoting Srila Prabhupada.
For the paper to also be effective, we need a database of feminist arguments for “equality”, because it is these points we are dealing with and have enamoured many leaders as well as rank and file. Some of our strongest arguments will come from arguments which they have also used:
sarganam adir antas ca
madhyam caivaham arjuna
adhyatma-vidya vidyanam
vadah pravadatam aham
“Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians, I am the conclusive truth.”
Purport
“. . .Among logicians there are different kinds of argument. Supporting one’s argument with evidence that also supports the opposing side is called jalpa. Merely trying to defeat one’s opponent is called vitanda. But the actual conclusion is called vada. This conclusive truth is a representation of Krishna.”
I have heard that Jivan Mukta P. has such a database of their arguments. Is that true, JM Prabhu?
Another thing is that when we present quotations from manu Samhita or other dharma shastras not translated by Srila Prabhupad, we have to also quote the sanskrit and be sure that the translation is accurate. I would highly recommend Basu Ghosh Prabhu for this. For any Bengali, Bhakti Vikas Maharaj. Our arguments have to be airtight.
Your fallen servant, Krishna-kirti das
(Text 1729912) ———————————————
Text 1731602 (15 lines)
From: Rasananda Swami (USA)
Date: 29-Sep-98 18:52 -0700
To: GHQ [16]
Subject: all glories to ghq
————————————————————
Camp: Los Angeles, CA
Dear Syamasundara Prabhu.
Please, accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I just spoke with Svavasa Prabhu and he agrees 100% with our views. He agrees to participate in the discussions. Please, add him in the conference.
Could you please send a list of all participantes in this conference? As people are joining the conference I would like to know who they are. Please, add Danavir Goswami as well.
Hoping you are well, your servant,
Rasananda Swami
(Text 1731602) ———————————————
Text 1735376 (27 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 01-Oct-98 11:55 +0100
To: GHQ [27]
Subject: The challenge
————————————————————
London, 30 Sep 98
I just visited Foyles, one of the world’s largest bookshops, to try and find a concise overview of the feminist movement, its history, objectives, and impact. I didn’t find such a book, so if anyone knows of such a volume, please let me know.
What I did find was a large section in the shop dedicated to womens’ issues. Browsing through some volumes gave me some perspective on how big a social force feminism is in contemporary society, and of how atheistic it is (being strongly linked to Darwinistic anthropology and the materialistic world view that goes with it). This may not be news to most of you–please bear with me, remembering that I live in India and tend to interact mostly with traditionalists, rather than modernists, there.
Anyway, my consternation at the influence of feminism within our movement is much increased. The challenge is not one simply of social ideology (as if that were not a big enough issue) but of underlying atheistic trends threatening to infiltrate our movement. It is interesting to note that two of the most prominent (and obnoxious) protaginists of feminism within Iskcon, namely M. Radha and Dhyana Kund, both have degrees in psychology and are thus well steeped in atheistic world views.
Is it possible to get Drutakarma Prabhu involved in our cause? He is undoubtedly very busy, but he is a tremendous scholar and writer, much in touch with secular scholarly ideas, and expert in rebutting them in their own terms.
(Text 1735376) ———————————————
I think I could act as a lobbyist. It would probably be more effective for a sannyasi to lobby other sannyasis.
Not too much before we give it too the GBC or it will leak to the feminists who may then have time to try to counter it.)
In the modern age, as soon as something is out, the whole world knows about it. one of the subjects of this paper be to show why feminism is very dangerous for Vedic culture.
This presumes that our leaders are convinced of the need for Vedic culture. I’m not sure that they all are, or that they all have much idea about what it’s about.
JM wrote of the need to show how that, although Srila Prabhupada made concessions for the circumstances he was preaching in, he wanted us to move towards the ideal of Vedic culture. This is a key point and one that will be vigorously contested. It needs to be demonstrated very clearly–our case may rest on it.
I’m off to Russia now. You may or may not hear from me in the next few weeks.
Dasanudasa,
Bhakti Vikasa Swami
(Text 1737737) ———————————————
Text 1738350 (7 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 12:09 +0000
To: GHQ [64]
Subject: Security
————————————————————
Needless to say the texts on ths conference are not to be circulated. “Loose lips sink ships.”
Also for your information this forum is hidden, only members will find it listed on the list of forums not anyone else. No one can see the status of this forum even if somehow they stumbled across it, that way no one would know who is on this forum.
(Text 1738350) ———————————————
Text 1729575 (16 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 29-Sep-98 11:53 +0100
To: GHQ [8]
Subject: Some observations
————————————————————
I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens’ meeting in LA. It presented the rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law.
It should be exposed that the feminists are appealing to a totally non-sastric source: the laws of a demoniac society that supports divorce, homosexuality etc. in the name of “equality” and “rights.”
That members of our movement can be so “off” and get Gbc support for it is frightening. What is more frightening is the possibility that our liberated mothers might throw the karmi law book at us and use the clout of state law to enforce “womens’ rights” in our temples and communities.
It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) “civilization.”
(Text 1729575) ———————————————
Text 1729577 (41 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 29-Sep-98 11:53 +0100
Refernce: Text 1726720 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA)
To: GHQ [10]
Subject: Strategy and action
————————————————————
At this stage a small tight team, all of whose members can invest substantial time, needs to be put together. Too many in the core group will make it unwieldy for the quick action that is required. I’m just heading into the Russian mess and doubt if I will be able to give much time in the next few weeks.
I strongly recommend Vidvan being called in. He is learned and both clear and level headed.
At first, goals and strategies have to be set. Do you intend to establish a beach-head at Mayapur ’99 or will you try to win the whole war? Remember that there will be other major issues on the table.
Quickly define goals and strategies, then get to work fast. Time is of the essence.
Again, I must emphasize my strong feeling that we should keep cool, even when outrageously maligned. Outrageous maligning is standard feminist m.o., but it will not help our cause to respond in the same way. Rather, we should appeal to the intelligence of the Gbc men (who are the ones who have to decide).
We should be especially careful not to alienate Gbc men by condemning them, but should learn from Lord Caitanya the art of politely overcoming opponents by better arguments (as with the Lord’s dealings with Keshav Kashmiri, Sarvabhauma etc.). Maybe we should stop using slighting words like “feminazi” even among ourselves, lest they slip out and further outrage the hot tempered purvapakshins.
Pre-meeting lobbying is essential, starting with Gbc’s who are known to be favorable. I think Shyama would be good for this. As far as I know he is respected and not considered political.
But first the presentation has to be got together. I suggest that there should be two papers: one short and to the point, another like a tome with all kinds of back-up quotes and arguments. Remember that Gbc’s, especially at meeting time, are deluged with papers and simply won’t look at a presentation that is more than a few pages long. But they might look at a paper of 2-4 pages that is well-written and to the point. They won’t give more than a glance at your tome, but it needs to be there for them to see that you are serious and have done your homework.
(Text 1729577) ———————————————
Forwarded text by Krishna-kirti :
In my view, it seems that replying privately to her and others of her ilk is a waste of time. All replies to such letters should be public, even if they request a private reply. Otherwise we are wasting energy.
But anyway, you can see from the above how they argue, and what are their strengths and weaknesses.
One of their weaknesses is that they are deficient in shastra, and long on selectively quoting Srila Prabhupada.
For the paper to also be effective, we need a database of feminist arguments for “equality”, because it is these points we are dealing with and have enamoured many leaders as well as rank and file. Some of our strongest arguments will come from arguments which they have also used:
sarganam adir antas ca
madhyam caivaham arjuna
adhyatma-vidya vidyanam
vadah pravadatam aham
“Of all creations I am the beginning and the end and also the middle, O Arjuna. Of all sciences I am the spiritual science of the self, and among logicians, I am the conclusive truth.”
Purport
“. . .Among logicians there are different kinds of argument. Supporting one’s argument with evidence that also supports the opposing side is called jalpa. Merely trying to defeat one’s opponent is called vitanda. But the actual conclusion is called vada. This conclusive truth is a representation of Krishna.”
I have heard that Jivan Mukta P. has such a database of their arguments. Is that true, JM Prabhu?
Another thing is that when we present quotations from manu Samhita or other dharma shastras not translated by Srila Prabhupad, we have to also quote the sanskrit and be sure that the translation is accurate. I would highly recommend Basu Ghosh Prabhu for this. For any Bengali, Bhakti Vikas Maharaj. Our arguments have to be airtight.
Your fallen servant, Krishna-kirti das
(Text 1729912) ———————————————
Text 1731602 (15 lines)
From: Rasananda Swami (USA)
Date: 29-Sep-98 18:52 -0700
To: GHQ [16]
Subject: all glories to ghq
————————————————————
Camp: Los Angeles, CA
Dear Syamasundara Prabhu.
Please, accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I just spoke with Svavasa Prabhu and he agrees 100% with our views. He agrees to participate in the discussions. Please, add him in the conference.
Could you please send a list of all participantes in this conference? As people are joining the conference I would like to know who they are. Please, add Danavir Goswami as well.
Hoping you are well, your servant,
Rasananda Swami
(Text 1731602) ———————————————
Text 1735376 (27 lines)
From: Bhakti Vikasa Swami
Date: 01-Oct-98 11:55 +0100
To: GHQ [27]
Subject: The challenge
————————————————————
London, 30 Sep 98
I just visited Foyles, one of the world’s largest bookshops, to try and find a concise overview of the feminist movement, its history, objectives, and impact. I didn’t find such a book, so if anyone knows of such a volume, please let me know.
What I did find was a large section in the shop dedicated to womens’ issues. Browsing through some volumes gave me some perspective on how big a social force feminism is in contemporary society, and of how atheistic it is (being strongly linked to Darwinistic anthropology and the materialistic world view that goes with it). This may not be news to most of you–please bear with me, remembering that I live in India and tend to interact mostly with traditionalists, rather than modernists, there.
Anyway, my consternation at the influence of feminism within our movement is much increased. The challenge is not one simply of social ideology (as if that were not a big enough issue) but of underlying atheistic trends threatening to infiltrate our movement. It is interesting to note that two of the most prominent (and obnoxious) protaginists of feminism within Iskcon, namely M. Radha and Dhyana Kund, both have degrees in psychology and are thus well steeped in atheistic world views.
Is it possible to get Drutakarma Prabhu involved in our cause? He is undoubtedly very busy, but he is a tremendous scholar and writer, much in touch with secular scholarly ideas, and expert in rebutting them in their own terms.
(Text 1735376) ———————————————
Comments: Text 1737635 by Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College -USA)
Text 1736978 (2 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 01-Oct-98 22:16 +0000
To: GHQ [29]
Subject: Women Preaching
————————————————————
“A woman’s preaching like a dog’s walking on his hind legs. It does not do well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.” Samuel Johnson
(Text 1736978) ———————————————
FW: letter by Jivanmukta:
Dear Prabhus and Maharajas,
PAMHO. AGTSP.
I would like to suggest that we involve the following devotees in compiling this paper or series of papers to present to the GBC:
Ameyatma prabhu
Shyamasundara Prabhu
Vidva Gauranga Prabhu
Guru-Krsna Prabhu
Mother Yasomati
Mother Gandhari
Sita dd. (my wife)
I feel it is very important that we address all the points brought up in the papers presented by Mothers Jyotirmayi, Pranada and Visakha. Their misunderstandings must be clearly exposed. We can either do so as a point by point rebuttal or they may be addressed by presenting a comprehensive paper dealing with the categories outlined below. Or we could do both. Please give your feedback on this summary. What else should be added or removed? Should it be structured in an entirely different manner? This is sent out to start the process.
There were some very disturbing remarks made by certain GBC members regarding this women’s issue. In particular Mukunda Maharaja made some extremely perverse remarks about *what Prabhupada would do today*. I feel this type of remark and attitude must also be addressed. Please note that we are well on our way of categorizing all the text on the DoW conference. Many of the texts will be helpful in isolating the various arguments used against dharma and the various scriptural rebuttals. We could make those available to the devotees working on the various categories. We could also send the entire archive out to whomever requests it.
I will be quite tied up during the next two weeks especially during November to December. I will do whatever I can to help. Time is of essence and at least if we have our format we could seek input and assistance from the assembled devotees. We could also provide the many quotes and scriptural reference to the devotees that require some research assistance. I am very encouraged by the resolve of you Prabhus and Matajis in seeing that Prabhupada’s movement becomes the glorious representation of Vedic culture it was intended to be. I offer my respectful obeisances to you all.
Note:
1. Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu has already prepared a paper entitled “The Whole Problem”. It was a cogent response to some feminist propaganda by Madusudhani Radha dd, Pranada dd. and others. He also sent a proposal to the GBC EC entitled “Proposal to establish & preserve sannyasa-, stri- & grhastha-dharmas”. With Vivan Gauranga Prabhu’s permission, I could forward these files to the assembled devotees. Waiting for your feedback.
2. Ameyatma Prabhu has many books available on his homepage that could be used as they are or could be referenced for many of these issues. He has also volunteered to present a seminar in Toronto on “Teaching the Principles of Dharma to Our Children” and ”Marriage of the Daughter” emphasizing the importance of Chastity and the importance of Protecting Women’s Chastity.
FW: letter by Jivanmukta:
Dear Prabhus and Maharajas,
PAMHO. AGTSP.
I would like to suggest that we involve the following devotees in compiling this paper or series of papers to present to the GBC:
Ameyatma prabhu
Shyamasundara Prabhu
Vidva Gauranga Prabhu
Guru-Krsna Prabhu
Mother Yasomati
Mother Gandhari
Sita dd. (my wife)
I feel it is very important that we address all the points brought up in the papers presented by Mothers Jyotirmayi, Pranada and Visakha. Their misunderstandings must be clearly exposed. We can either do so as a point by point rebuttal or they may be addressed by presenting a comprehensive paper dealing with the categories outlined below. Or we could do both. Please give your feedback on this summary. What else should be added or removed? Should it be structured in an entirely different manner? This is sent out to start the process.
There were some very disturbing remarks made by certain GBC members regarding this women’s issue. In particular Mukunda Maharaja made some extremely perverse remarks about *what Prabhupada would do today*. I feel this type of remark and attitude must also be addressed. Please note that we are well on our way of categorizing all the text on the DoW conference. Many of the texts will be helpful in isolating the various arguments used against dharma and the various scriptural rebuttals. We could make those available to the devotees working on the various categories. We could also send the entire archive out to whomever requests it.
I will be quite tied up during the next two weeks especially during November to December. I will do whatever I can to help. Time is of essence and at least if we have our format we could seek input and assistance from the assembled devotees. We could also provide the many quotes and scriptural reference to the devotees that require some research assistance. I am very encouraged by the resolve of you Prabhus and Matajis in seeing that Prabhupada’s movement becomes the glorious representation of Vedic culture it was intended to be. I offer my respectful obeisances to you all.
Note:
1. Vidvan Gauranga Prabhu has already prepared a paper entitled “The Whole Problem”. It was a cogent response to some feminist propaganda by Madusudhani Radha dd, Pranada dd. and others. He also sent a proposal to the GBC EC entitled “Proposal to establish & preserve sannyasa-, stri- & grhastha-dharmas”. With Vivan Gauranga Prabhu’s permission, I could forward these files to the assembled devotees. Waiting for your feedback.
2. Ameyatma Prabhu has many books available on his homepage that could be used as they are or could be referenced for many of these issues. He has also volunteered to present a seminar in Toronto on “Teaching the Principles of Dharma to Our Children” and ”Marriage of the Daughter” emphasizing the importance of Chastity and the importance of Protecting Women’s Chastity.
PADA: The GBC enforces chastity to worshiping of their illicit sex with men, women and children guru systems. And the citizens of ISKCON have to have their sons and daughters get married together with disciples of these perverts and their allies.
Marrying into an illicit sex with men, women and children church of Auschwitz for kids will not help preserve the marriage process, which probably explains why so many ISKCON's marriages end with divorce, and the rate is mostly -- a disaster -- which makes it a disaster for the kids.
3. Guru-Krsna Prabhu has volunteered to present a paper on Divorce for a proposed summer of 1999 Dharma Symposium in Toronto.
4. Mother Gandhari has a course of Vedic morality from which she teaches.
5. Jayasila Prabhu the grhastha Minister could be invited to participate. He has a manual on the Grhastha ashrma and has expressed his support for the objectives of the DoW Conference.
6. I have prepared a few a essays entitled: Gender Ethics, Compassionate Compromises (KC in the Early Days) and Lord Caitanya did not reject VAD.
Maybe someone may want to look at what has already been prepared and determine how to proceed.
Ys.
Jivan Mukta Dasa
———————————
Text 1737623 (29 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
To: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat – IN) [1234]
(received: 02-Oct-98 14:29 +0630)
Bcc: GHQ [37]
Subject: Feminism
————————————————————
Dear Jaso Prabhu,
AGTSP PAMHO
We are seriously organizing a counter-offensive against the feminists who are a plague in our movement. We need your help. We have set up a central command post and are seeking out devotees who can help in this mission. We need devotees who can help in the following catagories:
Researchers (of sastras) Writers Lobbyists (gaining support from GBC, sannyasis, Temple presidents and other senior devotees, and women)
I think that you would be excellent in all three catagories. I understand that you have already done research in the matter. We need your input. If feel that you can put some serious effort into this please let me know and I will add you to the comand post.
I know that you are very busy, as am I. But if we only think of our own project and don’t see what is happening to ISKCON all around us then our own projects will get swallowed up by this pernicious philosophy (a mix of mayavada and darwinism) and ruined.
We need help from fearless devotees like you NOW. I hope you hear the call.
yhs
shyamasundara dasa
3. Guru-Krsna Prabhu has volunteered to present a paper on Divorce for a proposed summer of 1999 Dharma Symposium in Toronto.
4. Mother Gandhari has a course of Vedic morality from which she teaches.
5. Jayasila Prabhu the grhastha Minister could be invited to participate. He has a manual on the Grhastha ashrma and has expressed his support for the objectives of the DoW Conference.
6. I have prepared a few a essays entitled: Gender Ethics, Compassionate Compromises (KC in the Early Days) and Lord Caitanya did not reject VAD.
Maybe someone may want to look at what has already been prepared and determine how to proceed.
Ys.
Jivan Mukta Dasa
———————————
Text 1737623 (29 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
To: Jasomatinandan (das) ACBSP (Gujarat – IN) [1234]
(received: 02-Oct-98 14:29 +0630)
Bcc: GHQ [37]
Subject: Feminism
————————————————————
Dear Jaso Prabhu,
AGTSP PAMHO
We are seriously organizing a counter-offensive against the feminists who are a plague in our movement. We need your help. We have set up a central command post and are seeking out devotees who can help in this mission. We need devotees who can help in the following catagories:
Researchers (of sastras) Writers Lobbyists (gaining support from GBC, sannyasis, Temple presidents and other senior devotees, and women)
I think that you would be excellent in all three catagories. I understand that you have already done research in the matter. We need your input. If feel that you can put some serious effort into this please let me know and I will add you to the comand post.
I know that you are very busy, as am I. But if we only think of our own project and don’t see what is happening to ISKCON all around us then our own projects will get swallowed up by this pernicious philosophy (a mix of mayavada and darwinism) and ruined.
We need help from fearless devotees like you NOW. I hope you hear the call.
yhs
shyamasundara dasa
(Text 1737623) ———————————————
Text 1737625 (32 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
Refernce: Text 1729575 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
To: GHQ [38]
Subject: Some observations
————————————————————
I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens’ meet in LA. It presented the rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law.
It should be exposed that the feminists are appealing to a totally non-sastric source: the laws of a demoniac society that supports divorce, homosexuality etc. in the name of “equality” and “rights.”
That members of our movement can be so “off” and get Gbc support for it is frightening. What is more frightening is the possibility that our liberated mothers might throw the karmi law book at us and use the clout of state law to enforce “womens’ rights” in our temples and communities.
Terrifying is more like. Maya is so powerful she is bewildering our leaders. Especially with something so obviously wrong.
It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) “civilization.”
Note, these are both run by Mukunda Maharaja, who is a close associate of Mother Sudharma. Jivan Mukta Prabhu, since you have been compiling the topics for the tome could you please include this: womens right by international law.
(No wonder the Muslims are against the secular West, I don’t balme them. You think we could get Taliban support? (: )
shyama
Text 1737625 (32 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
Refernce: Text 1729575 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
To: GHQ [38]
Subject: Some observations
————————————————————
I recently saw in the Iskcon Communications Journal the transcript of a speech given at the infamous Iskcon Womens’ meet in LA. It presented the rights of women in Iskcon according to International Law.
It should be exposed that the feminists are appealing to a totally non-sastric source: the laws of a demoniac society that supports divorce, homosexuality etc. in the name of “equality” and “rights.”
That members of our movement can be so “off” and get Gbc support for it is frightening. What is more frightening is the possibility that our liberated mothers might throw the karmi law book at us and use the clout of state law to enforce “womens’ rights” in our temples and communities.
Terrifying is more like. Maya is so powerful she is bewildering our leaders. Especially with something so obviously wrong.
It is interesting to note how ICJ and Iskcon World Review (now Hare Krsna Today) have systematically promoted within our society the values of the secular humanist liberal (i.e. atheistic) “civilization.”
Note, these are both run by Mukunda Maharaja, who is a close associate of Mother Sudharma. Jivan Mukta Prabhu, since you have been compiling the topics for the tome could you please include this: womens right by international law.
(No wonder the Muslims are against the secular West, I don’t balme them. You think we could get Taliban support? (: )
shyama
(Text 1737625) ———————————————
Text 1737627 (84 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
Refernce: Text 1729577 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
To: GHQ [39]
Subject: Strategy and action
————————————————————
At this stage a small tight team, all of whose members can invest substantial time, needs to be put together. Too many in the core group will make it unwieldy for the quick action that is required. I’m just heading into the Russian mess and doubt if I will be able to give much time in the next few weeks.
I agree totally. Each person on board should play an active part. We need a disciplined force not just numbers. One idea I just had is to form cells. That is, that istead of putting all our supporters on the forum a particular devotee on GHQ could be the contact person for those devotees and he organizes what they do according to the strategy of the GHQ. We can talk more about that later. But too many is too unwieldy for sure.
I strongly recommend Vidvan being called in. He is learned and both clear and level headed.
Your wish is my command. He is now on.
At first, goals and strategies have to be set. Do you intend to establish a beach-head at Mayapur ’99 or will you try to win the whole war? Remember that there will be other major issues on the table.
I think we should try for as much as possible on the first assault, but be perfectly prepared for a long campaign. It is actually a very good preaching opportunity. Lord Krsna is forcing us to define a very important issue in Vedic culture for modern times.
Quickly define goals and strategies, then get to work fast. Time is of the essence.
Again, I must emphasize my strong feeling that we should keep cool,
even when outrageously maligned. Outrageous maligning is standard feminist m.o., but it will not help our cause to respond in the same way. Rather, we should appeal to the intelligence of the Gbc men (who are the ones who have to decide).
That’s what Srila Prabhupada told the reporter in England. “Cool head, but warm legs.” (She was wearing a mini-skirt and asking about our shaved heads.)
We should be especially careful not to alienate Gbc men by condemning them, but should learn from Lord Caitanya the art of politely overcoming opponents by better arguments (as with the Lord’s dealings with Keshav Kashmiri, Sarvabhauma etc.). Maybe we should stop using slighting words like “feminazi” even among ourselves, lest they slip out and further outrage the hot tempered purvapakshins.
Exactly right.
Pre-meeting lobbying is essential, starting with Gbc’s who are known to be favorable. I think Shyama would be good for this. As far as I know he is respected and not considered political.
I don’t how true that is about being respected. What does it mean to be “political” anyway. In anycase I have no aspirations to be a leader in ISKCON so I don’t compete with any of them. I will do my best with those that I know. So far it has been successful. More on this later.
But first the presentation has to be got together. I suggest that there should be two papers: one short and to the point, another like a tome with all kinds of back-up quotes and arguments. Remember that Gbc’s, especially at meeting time, are deluged with papers and simply won’t look at a presentation that is more than a few pages long. But they might look at a paper of 2-4 pages that is well-written and to the point. They won’t give more than a glance at your tome, but it needs to be there for them to see that you are serious and have done your homework.
Very good point about a “laghu and maha” stri dharma samhita for the GBC.
More on this later.
shyama
(Text 1737627) ———————————————
Shyamasundar wrote:
I have thought of asking Bharata Srestha for all the texts sent to that conference during that time and then filtering out those of the variety that MR wrote. Could either of Guru-Krsna or Krishna Kirti Prabhus please get these texts. You are his god-brother and it would be less suspicious than if I asked. It would be important research.
Text 1737636 (15 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
Refernce: Text 1736257 by Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL – USA)
To: GHQ [45]
Subject: Drutakarma Prabhu
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
Refernce: Text 1729577 by Bhakti Vikasa Swami
To: GHQ [39]
Subject: Strategy and action
————————————————————
At this stage a small tight team, all of whose members can invest substantial time, needs to be put together. Too many in the core group will make it unwieldy for the quick action that is required. I’m just heading into the Russian mess and doubt if I will be able to give much time in the next few weeks.
I agree totally. Each person on board should play an active part. We need a disciplined force not just numbers. One idea I just had is to form cells. That is, that istead of putting all our supporters on the forum a particular devotee on GHQ could be the contact person for those devotees and he organizes what they do according to the strategy of the GHQ. We can talk more about that later. But too many is too unwieldy for sure.
I strongly recommend Vidvan being called in. He is learned and both clear and level headed.
Your wish is my command. He is now on.
At first, goals and strategies have to be set. Do you intend to establish a beach-head at Mayapur ’99 or will you try to win the whole war? Remember that there will be other major issues on the table.
I think we should try for as much as possible on the first assault, but be perfectly prepared for a long campaign. It is actually a very good preaching opportunity. Lord Krsna is forcing us to define a very important issue in Vedic culture for modern times.
Quickly define goals and strategies, then get to work fast. Time is of the essence.
Again, I must emphasize my strong feeling that we should keep cool,
even when outrageously maligned. Outrageous maligning is standard feminist m.o., but it will not help our cause to respond in the same way. Rather, we should appeal to the intelligence of the Gbc men (who are the ones who have to decide).
That’s what Srila Prabhupada told the reporter in England. “Cool head, but warm legs.” (She was wearing a mini-skirt and asking about our shaved heads.)
We should be especially careful not to alienate Gbc men by condemning them, but should learn from Lord Caitanya the art of politely overcoming opponents by better arguments (as with the Lord’s dealings with Keshav Kashmiri, Sarvabhauma etc.). Maybe we should stop using slighting words like “feminazi” even among ourselves, lest they slip out and further outrage the hot tempered purvapakshins.
Exactly right.
Pre-meeting lobbying is essential, starting with Gbc’s who are known to be favorable. I think Shyama would be good for this. As far as I know he is respected and not considered political.
I don’t how true that is about being respected. What does it mean to be “political” anyway. In anycase I have no aspirations to be a leader in ISKCON so I don’t compete with any of them. I will do my best with those that I know. So far it has been successful. More on this later.
But first the presentation has to be got together. I suggest that there should be two papers: one short and to the point, another like a tome with all kinds of back-up quotes and arguments. Remember that Gbc’s, especially at meeting time, are deluged with papers and simply won’t look at a presentation that is more than a few pages long. But they might look at a paper of 2-4 pages that is well-written and to the point. They won’t give more than a glance at your tome, but it needs to be there for them to see that you are serious and have done your homework.
Very good point about a “laghu and maha” stri dharma samhita for the GBC.
shyama
(Text 1737627) ———————————————
Shyamasundar wrote:
I have thought of asking Bharata Srestha for all the texts sent to that conference during that time and then filtering out those of the variety that MR wrote. Could either of Guru-Krsna or Krishna Kirti Prabhus please get these texts. You are his god-brother and it would be less suspicious than if I asked. It would be important research.
Text 1737636 (15 lines)
From: Shyamasundara (das) ACBSP (Florida Vedic College – USA)
Date: 02-Oct-98 06:50 +0000
Refernce: Text 1736257 by Guru-Krsna (das) HDG (Alachua, FL – USA)
To: GHQ [45]
Subject: Drutakarma Prabhu
————————————————————
”Is it possible to get Drutakarma Prabhu involved in our cause? He is ”undoubtedly very busy, but he is a tremendous scholar and writer, much in ”touch with secular scholarly ideas, and expert in rebutting them in their ”own terms.
I also had volunteered the opinon to Shyamasundara P that Drutakarma P would be a valuable assest to our cause. He is here in Alachua on a business trip (rtvik-smashing). With the permission of GHQ members, I would be happy to extend an invitation to him.
ys,
GKd
”Is it possible to get Drutakarma Prabhu involved in our cause? He is ”undoubtedly very busy, but he is a tremendous scholar and writer, much in ”touch with secular scholarly ideas, and expert in rebutting them in their ”own terms.
I also had volunteered the opinon to Shyamasundara P that Drutakarma P would be a valuable assest to our cause. He is here in Alachua on a business trip (rtvik-smashing). With the permission of GHQ members, I would be happy to extend an invitation to him.
ys,
GKd
PADA: There you have it. Drutakarma is ritvik bashing because the ritviks do not promote worship of illicit sex with men, women and children messiahs. And the ritviks are organizing lawsuits to defend the children victims of Drutakarma's program. Told ya! ys pd angel108b@yahoo.com
