Your children get to choose their own
(homosexual pedophile lineage) guru!
(ISKCON UK)
[PADA: The "big debate" in Krishna dharma's ISKCON? How many pedophiles are in their chain of God's successors? A college lady asked me what questions she should ask ISKCON people to find out their idea? I said, ask them why they worship pedophiles as their gurus, and if they cannot answer that, there is no second question to bother with.]
And thus -- why isn't Krishna Dharma protecting ISKCON's little children from that odious process? And how can toddlers and kindergarten children be placed in charge of deciding who is the next messiah of the religion, when their choices are being made from among their illicit sex deviants and pedophile's guru lineage?
angel108b@yahoo.com
M DASI: Having children worship pedophiles as their gurus is about as Krishna ADHARMA as it gets. Krishna Dharma should be addressing that ... but he never seems to. They do not know what is dharma ... and what is not. And if they make pedophiles into Krishna's successors, they have no idea who is Krishna. Or worse ... they think Krishna is Satan.
========================
[PADA: Yep, a number of ex-gurukulis children have been told "you had bad karma, you chose the wrong guru." Wait? Some of these kids were toddlers when they were initiated. How are toddlers supposed to take the advice of Krishna Dharma's program and "read the shastra and decide who is a guru and who is not"? And what if our guru parampara is Jimmy Savile's, and / or the people who supported and promoted Jimmy Savile?
Five years old children are supposed to select the guru of ISKCON, not the seniors and leaders of the GBC? When did Srila Prabhupada say, we should make 100 gurus, and let the five years old children decide which are bona fide and which are not? If any? I have no idea why Krishna Dharma's program has been trying to make the ISKCON toddlers and five years olds -- the head directors -- of the guru decision making committee? Shouldn't the adults be making these decisions, not the toddlers and kindergarten children?
If a company makes an unsafe car child seat, and children are being injured or die in car crashes -- because of the faulty seat, that is because the toddlers did not study the 400 pages "child safety seats standards" government's manual? Where do they come up with this stuff? No, the adults should read the manual first, not the toddlers!
You can read the whole paper here: https://gbc.iskcon.org/balancing-the-roles-of-the-gbc-and-the-disciple-in-guru-selection/
Despite the SAC offering support for these conclusions from scripture and the examples of tradition, the GBC elected to keep the system of a priori checks in place. One who wishes to initiate disciples within ISKCON must undergo institutional procedures before they can commence that service.
“Your first job should be to make sure that every one of the devotees in your zone of management is reading regularly our literatures and discussing the subject matter seriously from different angles of seeing, and that they are somehow or other absorbing the knowledge of Krishna Consciousness philosophy. If they are fully educated in our philosophy and if they can get all of the knowledge and study it from every viewpoint, then very easily they will perform tapasya or renunciation and that will be their advancement in Krishna Consciousness.” (Letter 16 June 1972)
Srila Prabhupada wanted us to thoroughly analyze his writings from various perspectives, to clear all doubts.
“Try to always study our books and see our philosophy from different lights of directions, become convinced yourself of this knowledge and without a doubt all of your difficulties of mind will disappear forever and you will see Krishna face-to-face.”(Letter 8 July 1972)
He did not expect us to just blindly accept what he had written, and he explained how, by the process of discussion, we would gradually become attached to the subject matter.
“Suppose you hear something of the Bhagavad-Gita, and it appeals to you, or even does not appeal to you. Just try to think over: ‘What Bhagavad-Gita says? How Swamiji has discussed this matter?’ Apply your arguments. Apply your logic. Don’t take it as a sentiment or as blind faith. You have got reason; you have got arguments; you have got sense. Apply it and try to understand it… You will gradually develop your attachment for hearing it, and devotional service will be invoked in your heart, and then gradually, you will make progress.”(Lecture 28 July 1966)
The above instruction is particularly pertinent to those still testing their guru prior to initiation in that one should question and raise doubts.
The benefits of sadhu sanga are great indeed.
“Such pure devotees, always merged in the knowledge of Krishna and absorbed in Krishna consciousness, exchange thoughts and realizations as great scientists exchange their views and discuss the results of their research in scientific academies. Such exchanges of thoughts in regard to Krishna give pleasure to the Lord, who therefore favours such devotees with all enlightenment.” (CC Adi 1.49)
“My dear King, in the place where pure devotees live, following the rules and regulations and thus purely conscious and engaged with great eagerness in hearing and chanting the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in that place if one gets a chance to hear their constant flow of nectar, which is exactly like the waves of a river, one will forget the necessities of life — namely hunger and thirst — and become immune to all kinds of fear, lamentation and illusion.”(SB 4.29.39-40)
Srila Prabhupada also defined sadhu sanga as “associating with the bona-fide spiritual master and abiding by his order.”(Lecture 19 August 1968) In the Bhagavatam verse cited above (3.25.25), Prabhupada translates the word ‘satam’ as “pure devotees”, and this is usually how he translates the word ‘sadhu’. It is a frequently repeated point. Lord Chaitanya says,
“Unless one is favoured by a pure devotee, one cannot attain the platform of devotional service. To say nothing of Krishna-bhakti, one cannot even be relieved from the bondage of material existence.” (CC Madhya 22.51)
Commenting on this verse, Prabhupada says,
“If one is serious about escaping maya’s influence and returning home, back to Godhead, one must associate with a sadhu (devotee). That is the verdict of all scriptures. By the slight association of a devotee, one can be freed from the clutches of maya. Without the mercy of the pure devotee, one cannot get freedom by any means. Certainly a pure devotee’s association is necessary in order to obtain the loving service of the Lord. One cannot be freed from maya’s clutches without sadhu-sanga.” (SB 5.3.14)
The sadhu is a perfect devotee.
“Sadhu means a devotee, perfect devotee of Krishna. That is a sadhu. Therefore it is recommended, sadhu-sanga. We have to associate with sadhu, means who have completely dedicated life for Krishna’s service.” (Lecture 16 Feb 1973)
Everything depends upon their association.
“The secret of success in the cultivation of Krishna consciousness is hearing from the right person.” (SB 4.29.39-40)
Hearing is the proper way to associate with sadhus.
“…one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.” (SB 3.31.48)
Although there may be other pure devotees, there cannot be any argument that Srila Prabhupada is the “right person” as described here. He is our foundational siksha guru and has made his association freely available in his instructions, which he wanted us all to study carefully. That will answer all questions and clear all obstacles.
A temple is a place whereby one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and all your questions will be answered and you will have a firm basis of Krsna consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect.” (Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22nd November, 1974)
“Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles.” (SB 1.2.18)
I believe that by deeply and carefully discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books together, we effectively get the association of both Bhagavatas , the book and the person. It is direct service to Srila Prabhupada.
“To serve the topmost devotee means to hear from him about the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (SB 4.22.22)
Only such personalities can give perfect knowledge that frees us from ignorance:
“Because conditioned soul cannot give you the truth. I am conditioned soul. I cannot say something which is absolute… Because we cannot take any instruction from a conditioned soul. So the spiritual master, even if you take that he is conditioned soul, but he does not speak anything from his own side. He speaks from Kṛṣṇa’s side. So unless… The Vedic principle is that unless one is not liberated from the material conditions, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. The conditioned soul, however he may be academically advanced, educated, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge.” (Lecture 27 Nov 1968)
I would suggest then that we carefully consider how we can improve our sadhu sanga, specifically discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books together, both in classes and if possible istha gosthis. He wanted this to be a primary focus of our sadhana.
“We should have regular classes, just like school and colleges, eight hour, six hour. Be engaged always in reading Srimad-Bhagavatam, discussing amongst yourself. Then you’ll make progress. Otherwise, if you take it as an official routine work… You should take as routine work, but with consciousness that “We have to learn something,” not simply attending the class, but to learn something. In this way make your life successful.” (Lecture 16 Jan 1975).
I feel that if we can work this out and introduce all new devotees to a culture of hearing and deeply discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books, we will see everything improve. Devotees will develop their good discrimination based on scripture, their detachment, and their attraction for Krishna. The need for administrative processes to regulate them will be significantly reduced, and the love and trust, and thus the cooperation, between us will increase markedly. The Bhagavatam sums it up nicely:
“One should learn how to associate with the devotees of the Lord by gathering with them to chant the glories of the Lord. This process is most purifying. As devotees thus develop their loving friendship, they feel mutual happiness and satisfaction. And by thus encouraging one another they are able to give up material sense gratification, which is the cause of all suffering.
And if the child has been -- in say for example -- Tamal's zone, the children pretty much does not have any choice of which guru either. They have been forced to accept Tamal as their guru or whomever the "zonal guru" is.
Lets face it, the guru selection is being done by the seniors and GBC, not the toddlers and five years old. This is riduculous to say the five years olds are the actual managers of ISKCON and the guru policy of ISKCON. It is shifting the blame, well the toddlers and five years olds selected the wrong guru, they made the problem, not us elders!
And that is how the odious "the children are just getting their karma" argument came from. No religion ever says that the toddlers and kindergarten children shall be in in charge of their main religion policies, standards, and even -- whether or not to worship someone from the congregation as the next Jesus. When did Srila Prabhupada say, the toddlers and kindergarten children shall decide who will be my successors?]
“Srila Prabhupada states that it is the responsibility of the prospective disciples to examine and test their prospective guru prior to initiation."
“Srila Prabhupada states that it is the responsibility of the prospective disciples to examine and test their prospective guru prior to initiation."
[PADA: There you have it, the toddlers and kindergarten children are responsible for deciding on making debauchees into acharyas. Krishna Dharma's party has nothing to do with that bad decision! Blame the toddlers for their mistakes!]
Given that the GBC gives tacit approval to gurus via their no-objection procedure, it could be that the prospective disciple’s desire to examine their prospective guru prior to initiation is compromised. Although there are many glorious descriptions of the qualities of guru in sastra, it is the duty of prospective disciples to not automatically assume those qualities are possessed by all ISKCON gurus.
[PADA: So we go to the used car lot, and we have to select which used car is good. However, some of the cars have no brakes, bald tires, and can start on fire. But we won't tell you which of them has these problems! Let the toddlers decide which car is safe and which is not?]
"Rather, they should objectively examine their prospective guru. There is prima facie evidence that suggests that prospective disciples do not take this responsibility seriously. Therefore we request the Sastric Advisory Council to research the balance between the responsibility of ISKCON to protect its members from unqualified gurus and the duty of the prospective disciples to give proper attention to the study of their prospective gurus prior to initiation.”
Following this request, the SAC produced a paper entitled, ‘Balancing the roles of the GBC and the disciple in Guru selection,’ in which they stated:
“We conclude that sastra, tradition, and Srila Prabhupada place the ultimate responsibility to test whether a guru is bona fide on the prospective disciple. Therefore, if we wish that new aspirants understand their need to examine a guru, we should move our guru–authorizing system as close as possible to the traditional form and terminology.
Following this request, the SAC produced a paper entitled, ‘Balancing the roles of the GBC and the disciple in Guru selection,’ in which they stated:
“We conclude that sastra, tradition, and Srila Prabhupada place the ultimate responsibility to test whether a guru is bona fide on the prospective disciple. Therefore, if we wish that new aspirants understand their need to examine a guru, we should move our guru–authorizing system as close as possible to the traditional form and terminology.
[PADA: And, when we do not give the job of authorizing who will be the gurus in ISKCON to five years olds, we give the job to the brand new bhaktas, just joining off the street. The brand new persons decide who is the authorized to be the guru for ISKCON, not the seniors and advanced leaders. That was going on here in Berkeley, the brand new people were worshiping Hansadutta, and they got to decide if he was a guru -- not the seniors and elders (like us). And even their toddlers and children were being initiated by Hansadutta as well, and they had no ability to ask us either.
Where is any of this described by Srila Prabhupada? We will have hundreds of gurus, and they will be selected by the toddlers and five year olds and the brand new bhaktas. And if they make a bad choice, then they have bad karma. No, you have bad karma for making these bad choices for others.]
“Bureaucratic processes about the suitability of a person to function as guru before the person has actually functioned as a guru have not proved successful as an effective guarantee. The actual behavior of the person as guru has, in practice, turned out to be the only effective basis for determining merit.
“It seems to us that if a devotee is apparently in good-standing and wishes to accept disciples, it is best to let the devotee accept disciples after a period of mutual testing between guru and disciple for at least a year. The institutional check against unfit gurus should be applied not a priori but a posteriori, in terms of attention to the actual behavior of the guru. If it turns out that the guru is unfit, this fact will be exposed.”
[PADA: So the five years olds and the new bhaktas are managing the guru testing process in ISKCON, not the seniors and leaders. No problem, when the guru deviates (and very likely he will) that will be a huge scandal which can be exposed ALL OVER THE KARMI MEDIA.
“Bureaucratic processes about the suitability of a person to function as guru before the person has actually functioned as a guru have not proved successful as an effective guarantee. The actual behavior of the person as guru has, in practice, turned out to be the only effective basis for determining merit.
“It seems to us that if a devotee is apparently in good-standing and wishes to accept disciples, it is best to let the devotee accept disciples after a period of mutual testing between guru and disciple for at least a year. The institutional check against unfit gurus should be applied not a priori but a posteriori, in terms of attention to the actual behavior of the guru. If it turns out that the guru is unfit, this fact will be exposed.”
[PADA: So the five years olds and the new bhaktas are managing the guru testing process in ISKCON, not the seniors and leaders. No problem, when the guru deviates (and very likely he will) that will be a huge scandal which can be exposed ALL OVER THE KARMI MEDIA.
We will give the five years old and new bhaktas the job to certify another guru, and we give them debauchees and deviants to select from. And then we will be sued for mass child molesting, go bankrupt, and have all sorts of negative guru scandals in the media because, who cares, they will be exposed.
OK so our bad gurus will be exposed in the media to hundreds of millions of people, and that is how we should manage the guru process? We want to spread the religion, by having one horrific scandal after the next in the media because "this fact will be exposed." How can we run a religion when we depend on the karmis and mundane media to "expose" our bad gurus, because we do not expose and remove them ourselves.]
You can read the whole paper here: https://gbc.iskcon.org/balancing-the-roles-of-the-gbc-and-the-disciple-in-guru-selection/
Despite the SAC offering support for these conclusions from scripture and the examples of tradition, the GBC elected to keep the system of a priori checks in place. One who wishes to initiate disciples within ISKCON must undergo institutional procedures before they can commence that service.
[PADA: Right, all of the people who supported the illicit sex with men, women and children guru process will double check the work of the five years olds and the new bhaktas to certify the gurus.]
The underlying rationale for such procedures is that without them, we run the risk of unqualified individuals inveigling new devotees into becoming their disciples. What this effectively means is that they do not see new devotees as having sufficient discernment to select a qualified guru without their oversight.
This is something of a paradox as the GBC admits there is an issue with disciples not properly testing their gurus, but by approving gurus, separating them from other preachers into a category of ‘ISKCON guru’, we exacerbate the problem. Hence, they commissioned the SAC to research the matter and see if we cannot make improvements.
[PADA: The guru is the representative of God, which is why, he needs a committee to make improvements on his behavior and certification process.]
To me, it seems the real question is how can we properly educate devotees to make intelligent choices, obviating the need for much of the bureaucracy occasioned by our guru approval process? In their paper, the SAC calls for better training of prospective initiates, and indeed we have the ISKCON Disciples Course, which one must undergo before taking diksha.
[PADA: The guru is the representative of God, which is why, he needs a committee to make improvements on his behavior and certification process.]
To me, it seems the real question is how can we properly educate devotees to make intelligent choices, obviating the need for much of the bureaucracy occasioned by our guru approval process? In their paper, the SAC calls for better training of prospective initiates, and indeed we have the ISKCON Disciples Course, which one must undergo before taking diksha.
[PADA: Yep, a person in the ISKCON Disciples Class was telling me essentially -- he has to prepare for the fact his guru might be -- an asura who has fallen from devotional service. In which case he can worship Srila Prabhupada temporarily, until the same people who gave him the asura guru have time to certify the asura's replacement.
Meanwhile the asura guru was acting as a certifying agent for other gurus before it was discovered he was an asura. Therefore you can have full confidence in your next wave of guru, because your new guru is certified by the same people who certified your first wave previous asura guru. Some of the previous first wave asura gurus were also part of the voters committee for the next wave of gurus. Where is any of this described by Srila Prabhupada?]
Still, the GBC oversight remains, so plainly this course is not sufficient. So, what kind of training can we offer that will equip devotees with the discrimination required to avoid unqualified gurus? Firstly, when is someone even considered ready for initiation? According to scripture, it should take place at the bhajana kriya stage of devotional service when one is prepared to give his life to the practices of bhakti.
“In the beginning, there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders.” -Chaitanya Charitamrita (CC), Madhya Lila 23.14
As stated in the above verse, there are two stages preceding initiation, sraddha and sadhu sanga, or initial faith and association with sadhus, “pure devotees” of Krishna. By the process of sadhu sanga we should reach a high level of practice even before initiation.
“One who is not self-controlled, specifically in sex life, can become neither a disciple nor a spiritual master. One must have disciplinary training in controlling speaking, anger, the tongue, the mind, the belly, and the genitals. One who has controlled the particular senses mentioned above is called a gosvāmī. Without becoming a gosvāmī one can become neither a disciple nor a spiritual master.” -Srimad Bhagavatam (SB) 2.9.43 purport
One must be a goswami, sense controlled, *before* becoming a disciple. As those of us who have been practicing for some time know, this is no small thing. We have seen over the years how those who accepted vows at a young age often find them difficult to follow in course of time.
“In the beginning, there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders.” -Chaitanya Charitamrita (CC), Madhya Lila 23.14
As stated in the above verse, there are two stages preceding initiation, sraddha and sadhu sanga, or initial faith and association with sadhus, “pure devotees” of Krishna. By the process of sadhu sanga we should reach a high level of practice even before initiation.
“One who is not self-controlled, specifically in sex life, can become neither a disciple nor a spiritual master. One must have disciplinary training in controlling speaking, anger, the tongue, the mind, the belly, and the genitals. One who has controlled the particular senses mentioned above is called a gosvāmī. Without becoming a gosvāmī one can become neither a disciple nor a spiritual master.” -Srimad Bhagavatam (SB) 2.9.43 purport
One must be a goswami, sense controlled, *before* becoming a disciple. As those of us who have been practicing for some time know, this is no small thing. We have seen over the years how those who accepted vows at a young age often find them difficult to follow in course of time.
In the Madhurya Kadambini (chapter 3), Vishvanath Chakravarti Thakur describes this as the unsteady stage of devotional service, at the beginning of bhajana kriya. It goes through various stages before finally maturing to steady practice, when initiation should ideally take place. It is only then that one can be confident of keeping his vows, without which the initiation is meaningless.
“Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī warns, however, that if a person is properly initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, he should not think that simply by the acceptance of such initiation his business is then finished. One still has to follow the rules and regulations very carefully. If after accepting the spiritual master and being initiated one does not follow the rules and regulations of devotional service, then he is again fallen.
“Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī warns, however, that if a person is properly initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, he should not think that simply by the acceptance of such initiation his business is then finished. One still has to follow the rules and regulations very carefully. If after accepting the spiritual master and being initiated one does not follow the rules and regulations of devotional service, then he is again fallen.
…In other words, simply becoming initiated does not elevate one to the position of a high-class brāhmaṇa. One also has to discharge the duties and follow the regulative principles very rigidly.” Nectar of Devotion 5
As well as the above requirement, there is also the standard test of a disciple that the guru must make; is he or she intent upon achieving life’s ultimate goal?
“As far as the mutual testing of the spiritual master and disciple is concerned, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura explains that a bona fide disciple must be very inquisitive to understand the transcendental subject matter.
As well as the above requirement, there is also the standard test of a disciple that the guru must make; is he or she intent upon achieving life’s ultimate goal?
“As far as the mutual testing of the spiritual master and disciple is concerned, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura explains that a bona fide disciple must be very inquisitive to understand the transcendental subject matter.
"As stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.3.21): tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsuḥ śreya uttamam. “One who is inquisitive to understand the highest goal and benefit of life must approach a bona fide spiritual master and surrender unto him.” A serious disciple must be alert when selecting a bona fide spiritual master. He must be sure that the spiritual master can deliver all the transcendental necessities.
The spiritual master must observe how inquisitive the disciple is and how eager he is to understand the transcendental subject matter. The spiritual master should study the disciple’s inquisitiveness for no less than six months or a year.” (CC, Madhya Lila 24.330 purport.)
As the above quote states, there must be “mutual testing”, so while the guru must ensure the disciple is qualified, the disciple must similarly assess the spiritual master. Which brings us back to where I began this article, that the GBC do not trust devotees to make an independent assessment or decision without their oversight. They also do not allow gurus to independently assess prospective disciples. The gurus must accept a third-party recommendation from an ISKCON authority, such as a Temple President.
[PADA: And as soon as a person decides that Srila Prabhupada is their guru, they are banned, beaten, exiled, removed, sued, and maybe -- shot in the head.]
So back to my first question; how can we better equip devotees with good discrimination to make informed and wise choices, while also bringing them to the high standard required of a disciple? While we can educate devotees in those parts of scripture which describe the characteristics of a bona fide guru, we cannot easily teach them the wisdom to apply such knowledge.
As the above quote states, there must be “mutual testing”, so while the guru must ensure the disciple is qualified, the disciple must similarly assess the spiritual master. Which brings us back to where I began this article, that the GBC do not trust devotees to make an independent assessment or decision without their oversight. They also do not allow gurus to independently assess prospective disciples. The gurus must accept a third-party recommendation from an ISKCON authority, such as a Temple President.
[PADA: And as soon as a person decides that Srila Prabhupada is their guru, they are banned, beaten, exiled, removed, sued, and maybe -- shot in the head.]
So back to my first question; how can we better equip devotees with good discrimination to make informed and wise choices, while also bringing them to the high standard required of a disciple? While we can educate devotees in those parts of scripture which describe the characteristics of a bona fide guru, we cannot easily teach them the wisdom to apply such knowledge.
Nor can any academic course—whether it be the IDC, Bhakti sastri, or whatever—turn them into self-controlled goswamis. This is where sadhu sanga comes in, the stage of bhakti preceding bhajana kriya, when initiation occurs. This should develop all the qualities required of a disciple, and indeed the percipience needed to choose one’s guru.
[PADA: Correct, only AFTER a person is initiated and he studies the shastra carefully can he have more discrimination on figuring out who, if any, among the 100 previously voted in GBC gurus, should be worthy of being worshiped. First of all, he does not even know who most of them are. Why not worship Srila Prabhupada as the guru, then there is a clear and perfect choice. Why speculate endlessly, when some people here have had four gurus, after each one fell.]
Sadhu sanga is absolutely key to developing our Krishna consciousness. One verse in scripture says how even a moment’s association with a sadhu can give one “all perfection”. (CC Madhya 22.54) Then there is Lord Chaitanya’s statement that the “root cause of bhakti is sadhu-sanga” (CC Madhya 22.83) which Srila Prabhupada translates as the association of advanced devotees. There are hundreds of such statements in our scriptures emphasizing the importance of associating with devotees. What then constitutes sadhu-sanga, and who is the sadhu?
In one place Srila Prabhupada directly equates it with hearing.
“Lord Chaitanya, therefore, recommended five main principles for attaining perfection in the devotional service of the Lord. The first is association with devotees (hearing).”(SB 2.9.31)
For the most part, though, he defines it as discussing about Krishna.
“Those who are devotees, they assemble together. Bodhayantah parasparam. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, “They discuss about the glories of the Lord.” Bodhayantah parasparam. That is sadhu-sanga” (Lecture Bombay, December 4, 1974)
Here Srila Prabhupada quotes a seed verse of the Bhagavad-Gita , where Krishna describes the symptoms of a pure devotee, how they “derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about me.”(Bg 10.9)
We find in this section of the Gita, the four seed verses, Krishna telling us that by this practise, hearing and chanting about him, he will give us spiritual intelligence, dadami buddhi yogam tam (Bg 10.10).
Krishna conscious discussion is also known as istha-gosthi, instituted by Srila Prabhupada. Here is his definition of that:
“For a devotee, there is no point in making friendships with ordinary persons; he should make friendship with other devotees so that by discussing among themselves, they may elevate one another on the path of spiritual understanding. This is called ista-gosthi. In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, “discussing among themselves.” Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krishna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves.” (SB.3.29.3)
Prabhupada would often cite a key Bhagavatam verse that describes how by sadhu or sat-sanga, by discussing Krishna consciousness in the association of devotees, the entire process of bhakti unfolds.
“In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.”(SB 3.25.25)
By this process, we will achieve success in all our endeavours.
“This process of hearing about and glorifying the Lord is applicable for everyone, whoever he may be, and it will lead one to the ultimate success in everything in which one may be engaged by providence.”(SB 2.1.5)
Discussion about Krishna is how we develop detachment and come to the Lord.
“Therefore one must learn detachment by discussion of spiritual science based on authoritative scriptures, and one must hear from persons who are actually in knowledge. As a result of such discussion in the association of devotees, one comes to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”(Bg 15.3-4)
In 1972 Prabhupada issued an instruction to a prominent GBC member that his “first job” should be to ensure that the devotees in his care were regularly reading and discussing his books.
In one place Srila Prabhupada directly equates it with hearing.
“Lord Chaitanya, therefore, recommended five main principles for attaining perfection in the devotional service of the Lord. The first is association with devotees (hearing).”(SB 2.9.31)
For the most part, though, he defines it as discussing about Krishna.
“Those who are devotees, they assemble together. Bodhayantah parasparam. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, “They discuss about the glories of the Lord.” Bodhayantah parasparam. That is sadhu-sanga” (Lecture Bombay, December 4, 1974)
Here Srila Prabhupada quotes a seed verse of the Bhagavad-Gita , where Krishna describes the symptoms of a pure devotee, how they “derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about me.”(Bg 10.9)
We find in this section of the Gita, the four seed verses, Krishna telling us that by this practise, hearing and chanting about him, he will give us spiritual intelligence, dadami buddhi yogam tam (Bg 10.10).
Krishna conscious discussion is also known as istha-gosthi, instituted by Srila Prabhupada. Here is his definition of that:
“For a devotee, there is no point in making friendships with ordinary persons; he should make friendship with other devotees so that by discussing among themselves, they may elevate one another on the path of spiritual understanding. This is called ista-gosthi. In Bhagavad-gita there is reference to bodhayantah parasparam, “discussing among themselves.” Generally pure devotees utilize their valuable time in chanting and discussing various activities of Lord Krishna or Lord Caitanya amongst themselves.” (SB.3.29.3)
Prabhupada would often cite a key Bhagavatam verse that describes how by sadhu or sat-sanga, by discussing Krishna consciousness in the association of devotees, the entire process of bhakti unfolds.
“In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.”(SB 3.25.25)
By this process, we will achieve success in all our endeavours.
“This process of hearing about and glorifying the Lord is applicable for everyone, whoever he may be, and it will lead one to the ultimate success in everything in which one may be engaged by providence.”(SB 2.1.5)
Discussion about Krishna is how we develop detachment and come to the Lord.
“Therefore one must learn detachment by discussion of spiritual science based on authoritative scriptures, and one must hear from persons who are actually in knowledge. As a result of such discussion in the association of devotees, one comes to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”(Bg 15.3-4)
In 1972 Prabhupada issued an instruction to a prominent GBC member that his “first job” should be to ensure that the devotees in his care were regularly reading and discussing his books.
[PADA: Anyone who quotes the books, the guru must be an uttama, is kicked out the door.]
“Your first job should be to make sure that every one of the devotees in your zone of management is reading regularly our literatures and discussing the subject matter seriously from different angles of seeing, and that they are somehow or other absorbing the knowledge of Krishna Consciousness philosophy. If they are fully educated in our philosophy and if they can get all of the knowledge and study it from every viewpoint, then very easily they will perform tapasya or renunciation and that will be their advancement in Krishna Consciousness.” (Letter 16 June 1972)
Srila Prabhupada wanted us to thoroughly analyze his writings from various perspectives, to clear all doubts.
“Try to always study our books and see our philosophy from different lights of directions, become convinced yourself of this knowledge and without a doubt all of your difficulties of mind will disappear forever and you will see Krishna face-to-face.”(Letter 8 July 1972)
He did not expect us to just blindly accept what he had written, and he explained how, by the process of discussion, we would gradually become attached to the subject matter.
“Suppose you hear something of the Bhagavad-Gita, and it appeals to you, or even does not appeal to you. Just try to think over: ‘What Bhagavad-Gita says? How Swamiji has discussed this matter?’ Apply your arguments. Apply your logic. Don’t take it as a sentiment or as blind faith. You have got reason; you have got arguments; you have got sense. Apply it and try to understand it… You will gradually develop your attachment for hearing it, and devotional service will be invoked in your heart, and then gradually, you will make progress.”(Lecture 28 July 1966)
The above instruction is particularly pertinent to those still testing their guru prior to initiation in that one should question and raise doubts.
The benefits of sadhu sanga are great indeed.
“Such pure devotees, always merged in the knowledge of Krishna and absorbed in Krishna consciousness, exchange thoughts and realizations as great scientists exchange their views and discuss the results of their research in scientific academies. Such exchanges of thoughts in regard to Krishna give pleasure to the Lord, who therefore favours such devotees with all enlightenment.” (CC Adi 1.49)
“My dear King, in the place where pure devotees live, following the rules and regulations and thus purely conscious and engaged with great eagerness in hearing and chanting the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, in that place if one gets a chance to hear their constant flow of nectar, which is exactly like the waves of a river, one will forget the necessities of life — namely hunger and thirst — and become immune to all kinds of fear, lamentation and illusion.”(SB 4.29.39-40)
Srila Prabhupada also defined sadhu sanga as “associating with the bona-fide spiritual master and abiding by his order.”(Lecture 19 August 1968) In the Bhagavatam verse cited above (3.25.25), Prabhupada translates the word ‘satam’ as “pure devotees”, and this is usually how he translates the word ‘sadhu’. It is a frequently repeated point. Lord Chaitanya says,
“Unless one is favoured by a pure devotee, one cannot attain the platform of devotional service. To say nothing of Krishna-bhakti, one cannot even be relieved from the bondage of material existence.” (CC Madhya 22.51)
Commenting on this verse, Prabhupada says,
“If one is serious about escaping maya’s influence and returning home, back to Godhead, one must associate with a sadhu (devotee). That is the verdict of all scriptures. By the slight association of a devotee, one can be freed from the clutches of maya. Without the mercy of the pure devotee, one cannot get freedom by any means. Certainly a pure devotee’s association is necessary in order to obtain the loving service of the Lord. One cannot be freed from maya’s clutches without sadhu-sanga.” (SB 5.3.14)
The sadhu is a perfect devotee.
“Sadhu means a devotee, perfect devotee of Krishna. That is a sadhu. Therefore it is recommended, sadhu-sanga. We have to associate with sadhu, means who have completely dedicated life for Krishna’s service.” (Lecture 16 Feb 1973)
Everything depends upon their association.
“The secret of success in the cultivation of Krishna consciousness is hearing from the right person.” (SB 4.29.39-40)
Hearing is the proper way to associate with sadhus.
“…one has to associate with liberated persons not directly, physically, but by understanding, through philosophy and logic, the problems of life.” (SB 3.31.48)
Although there may be other pure devotees, there cannot be any argument that Srila Prabhupada is the “right person” as described here. He is our foundational siksha guru and has made his association freely available in his instructions, which he wanted us all to study carefully. That will answer all questions and clear all obstacles.
A temple is a place whereby one is given the opportunity to render direct devotional service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna. In conjunction with this you should always read my books daily and all your questions will be answered and you will have a firm basis of Krsna consciousness. In this way your life will be perfect.” (Letter to Hugo Salemon, 22nd November, 1974)
“Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles.” (SB 1.2.18)
I believe that by deeply and carefully discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books together, we effectively get the association of both Bhagavatas , the book and the person. It is direct service to Srila Prabhupada.
“To serve the topmost devotee means to hear from him about the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (SB 4.22.22)
Only such personalities can give perfect knowledge that frees us from ignorance:
“Because conditioned soul cannot give you the truth. I am conditioned soul. I cannot say something which is absolute… Because we cannot take any instruction from a conditioned soul. So the spiritual master, even if you take that he is conditioned soul, but he does not speak anything from his own side. He speaks from Kṛṣṇa’s side. So unless… The Vedic principle is that unless one is not liberated from the material conditions, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge. The conditioned soul, however he may be academically advanced, educated, he cannot give us any perfect knowledge.” (Lecture 27 Nov 1968)
I would suggest then that we carefully consider how we can improve our sadhu sanga, specifically discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books together, both in classes and if possible istha gosthis. He wanted this to be a primary focus of our sadhana.
“We should have regular classes, just like school and colleges, eight hour, six hour. Be engaged always in reading Srimad-Bhagavatam, discussing amongst yourself. Then you’ll make progress. Otherwise, if you take it as an official routine work… You should take as routine work, but with consciousness that “We have to learn something,” not simply attending the class, but to learn something. In this way make your life successful.” (Lecture 16 Jan 1975).
I feel that if we can work this out and introduce all new devotees to a culture of hearing and deeply discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books, we will see everything improve. Devotees will develop their good discrimination based on scripture, their detachment, and their attraction for Krishna. The need for administrative processes to regulate them will be significantly reduced, and the love and trust, and thus the cooperation, between us will increase markedly. The Bhagavatam sums it up nicely:
“One should learn how to associate with the devotees of the Lord by gathering with them to chant the glories of the Lord. This process is most purifying. As devotees thus develop their loving friendship, they feel mutual happiness and satisfaction. And by thus encouraging one another they are able to give up material sense gratification, which is the cause of all suffering.
The devotees of the Lord constantly discuss the glories of the Personality of Godhead among themselves. Thus, they constantly remember the Lord and remind one another of His qualities and pastimes. In this way, by their devotion to the principles of bhakti-yoga, the devotees please the Personality of Godhead, who takes away from them everything inauspicious. Being purified of all impediments, the devotees awaken to pure love of Godhead, and thus, even within this world, their spiritualized bodies exhibit symptoms of transcendental ecstasy, such as standing of the bodily hairs on end.” SB 11.3.30-31
My wife Cintamani-dhama and I have compiled a set of principles drawn from Srila Prabhupada’s instructions about sadhu sanga which can be found on our website: www.improvingsanga.com
Your servant
Krishna dharma das
Tag: initiation , krishna-dharma , opinion
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My wife Cintamani-dhama and I have compiled a set of principles drawn from Srila Prabhupada’s instructions about sadhu sanga which can be found on our website: www.improvingsanga.com
Your servant
Krishna dharma das
Tag: initiation , krishna-dharma , opinion
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[PADA: What is the use of reading Srila Prabhupada's books, when anyone who cites them is often banned, beaten, exiled, removed, sued and maybe assassinated? For starters, nowhere in Srila Prabhupada's books does he say the five years olds and the new bhaktas should be in charge of deciding who should be the guru of ISKCON. Nowhere does he say we should rely on having these bad gurus exposed to millions and billions of people because "having them exposed" in the world wide news media is the check and balance of managing ISKCON.
Nor does Srila Prabhupada say that you can stop worship of your asura guru, and worship him temporarily, until the person in your first wave of asura gurus votes in your next wave of gurus. AND SO ON! None of what is being done now was instructed by Srila Prabhupada, including, their whole post-1978 illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara. None of this is found in shastra.
That means, as I have had to explain to one young college student lady recently, evidently no one in ISKCON can even answer our first question "are child molesters gurus"? They have promoted worship of their child molester gurus from 1978 until now. If they cannot answer that question, how can they help others study the shastra?
Krishna Dharma avoids the real issue, child molesters and / or their support team are not gurus, were not gurus, could not have been gurus. Case closed! Blaming the children for making child molesters into gurus is shameless, and no small amount of heartless, and no small amount of re-victimizing the victims.
ys pd]
N DASA: ISKCON doesn't even have a public image anymore... most older people think it died out decades ago... most young people don't even know it exists. ISKCON leaders have completely failed the mission Srila Prabhupada came to establish.
ReplyDeleteNow the blood sucking parasites are picking off the last bits of fat fom the bones. ISKCON was always insular... xenophobic... now its just irrelevant. Or considered as dangerous for children ... due to a propensity to enable abusers.
If people want Krsna ... Srila Prabhupada is still here... just read his unedited books online and listen to the thousands of hours of lectures... and hundreds of hours of chanting available.... his Vani is like an ocean... takes years just to give it a pass over... lifetimes to go in deep.... only the fool is thirsty for knowledge when it is actually so available.
Trying to fix this power structure is pointless .... its thouroughly corrupt ... as our dear S Dasi continues to prove. They have no interest in Krsna or truth... or even common decency... all they care about is clinging onto their pathetic money making position and continue milking the pious hindu community for any money they can.... thats what it has all come to.... disgusting. It is all about clinging to power and money ... at the expense of everything and everyone else.
ALL THIS CORRUPTION IS GOING ON IN ISKCON DUE TO LACK OF SELF-REALIZATION! Chintamani M: Hare Krishna, All this corruption is going on due to lack of self-realization. Srila Prabhupada was hammering on trying to know yourself, but no one can follow. We prefer to remain on the bodily concept and cheat others, period! Otherwise, a dhir and sober person is completely out of this world, although he is temporarily here only working to please Guru and Krishna, period! (Bg. 18. 54) confirmed it in the following manners quote, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā / na śocati na kāṅkṣati / samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
ReplyDeletemad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām /
Translation: One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.
Purport: To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhūta stage, becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further, to become engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhūta, oneness with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute conception, there is no difference between the served and the servitor; yet the distinction is there, in a higher spiritual sense. Due to lack of self-realization, Lord Krishna says no one knows Him, this is absolute fact. No debate at all.
That means, they do not know Krishna, or they would not behave like they do. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
SD DASI: I really have never seen anything so disgusting. The toddlers decided to have child molesters as their gurus. The toddlers made the wrong choices. "The toddlers did not read the shastra properly"!
ReplyDeleteKrishna Dharma and his GBC friends are scot free? This is really horrible. The toddlers are to be blamed for making ISKCON into a child molester's guru's cult! How sick is that? And that means the toddlers made all the bad publicity, lawsuits, and ruined Krishna's name. We senior leaders are not to be blamed. The Devil made me do it.
And in Krishna Adharma's ISKCON "process of debate." You are right ... since they cannot answer ... why are you making pedophiles into your gurus?, there is no second questions needed. Except second question might be, why are you blaming the toddlers for your leaders making pedophiles into your toddler's gurus?
How do the toddlers get blamed for all your evil and nasty ideas, that people need to worship pedophiles as their gurus? That was not the idea of the toddlers, that was your idea, so man up and take responsibility ... and quit blaming the toddlers. Holy crap, the toddlers ruined ISKCON ... by their bad managing!
These people are Satanic, they make their own pedophile's gurus, then they blame the toddlers for their own sh*t show, how sick is that! I thought they could not get worse, but every day, they get more demoniac. No wonder they all have to go to the lowest regions.
Bhakti Purushottama swami is supposedly now praying for Jayapataka to leave so he can take Mayapur. They are just thieves fighting over stolen property. They stole it from us. And all the problems? Caused by the toddlers! Who knew! The good news, we are now free of them, at least we can now save ourselves and our toddlers from them.
LW: Oh oh. This is called victim blaming. The toddlers "choose the wrong guru." And that is why they were molested. Takes Krishna Adharma and his molester guru's gang totally off the hook.
ReplyDeleteThey are not responsible for the molesting, the children victims are. Horrible people to be blaming their toddlers and five years olds victims.
However! They would make good cigarette company lawyers. We know our product is dangerous ... you took it because we enticed you with ads with lovely ladies smoking our products! You took the bait, your bad. Except, children are legally not allowed to smoke cigarettes, but they are allowed to worship pedophiles as their gurus in ISKCON. First of all they need to make a rule, only adults can worship sexual predators, children should not be allowed.
No such luck. Instead in ISKCON the children would be the cause of the whole problem of people dying from cigarettes. The children chose to smoke but oh yea ... we gave them the cigarettes! And we smashed cigarettes into their mouths and lighted them up for them to smoke! But they made the wrong choices? WTF? Everytime they speak ... it is just another layer of insult to injury.
CW: Of course they all know they crammed their pedophile gurus onto the children. No one actually believes the children "made the wrong choices." The choices were made FOR THEM by all these adults. And the adult's bad choices were then forced UPON the children.
ReplyDeleteAll the beatings, molesting, broke bones, starving, and worship of illicit sex was never "the choice" of ANY these children. They were never given an actual choice. They had to worship this program because they were children ... they had no other option.
To say the children made the wrong choice, or they had the bad karma, is just plain shifting the blame. The blame goes to the leaders, the parents, and all of the adults in ISKCON who enabled all this. To blame the victims, especially children victims, for making the wrong choices is simply awful. Just when you'd think their stink could not get worse, they let out another cloud of stink gas.
No, the children are not making wrong choices! YOU are making wrong choices and FORCING them to accept YOUR wrong choices. Don't be worse A**HOLES than you already are! Now Dravida is saying that their pedophile's guru worship program "connects people to Prabhupada." What in Hell! All these children have been starved, beaten, molested and then committed suicide all because ... they are being connected to Prabhupada! They are just going from bad to worse ... their explanations are getting worse every day.
That is why Srila Prabhupada says ... people who twist the Vedas get worse birth than the regular mundane person. We can easy see why ...
I DASI (EU): Sure, children will make bad choices. That is why ... we do not allow our children to choose ... to smoke cigarettes etc. Adults have to choose for them. Sounds VERY idiotic ... ISKCON children being blamed!
ReplyDeleteThe ISKCON children are the ones responsible for selecting the wrong gurus. (!!!) Shouldn't the adults supposed to make sure the children are not smoking or selecting wrong gurus.
Where are the adults hiding at? I am shocked the parents never really say much after being told ... "your children wanted to worship pedophiles ... so we gave them some pedophiles to worship."
Someone should have said ... that is bogus! YOU leaders wanted our children to worship pedophiles gurus ... not them! Krishna dharma misses the whole point. No children should decide if they want to smoke cigarettes ... or worship bogus gurus. He is not making any sense at all. The children should be allowed to smoke cigarettes or worship bogus gurus ... and we do not stop the children from ... falling off the cliff? Or even ... we are pushing them off the cliff? Why are they pushing the children to worship pedophiles ... then blaming them? This is very bad ... shows how they will say about anything to justify pedophile gurus. They are cheaters and they will even throw children out the window to make their bogus-ness work.
Children are supposed to be protected ... not made to worship bogus people ... never mind pedophiles. Where is the child protection program? There is none! They are cheaters and they are cheating ... even children. They think they are very clever ... because they can fool children to worship bogus people? No ... this is the greatest sin ... to mislead the children ... and ruin their spiritual life. Krishna dharma has no idea ... it is the duty of the adults to protect the children ... not mislead and ruin them.
"Because demoniac people want to be cheated, so many cheaters are present to cheat them. At the present moment in this age of Kali-yuga, the entire human society has become an assembly of cheaters and cheated. For this reason the Vedic scriptures have given us the proper directions for sense gratification. Everyone is inclined in this age to eat meat and fish, drink liquor and indulge in sex life, but according to the Vedic injunctions, sex is allowed only in marriage, meat-eating is allowed only when the animal is killed and offered before the goddess Kālī, and intoxication is allowed only in a restricted way. In this verse the word niyamyate indicates that all these things—namely animal-killing, intoxication and sex—should be regulated. Srila Prabhupada Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.26.6