Indradyumna Swami "Attacks On ISKCON" pt. 2

Indradyumna swami: "So these are distinct differences from the Gaudiya Matha's teachings of Srila Prabhupada. So to whom are we to give our allegiance? He is a charismatic person, and in his movement there's not so many problems because it's a young movement. So, out of some frustration should we leave ISKCON and join his movement? Just because emotionally he's, you know... You're upset with ISKCON, and he is a very charismatic person, so should we just leave ISKCON and join Narayana Maharaja, or any other member of Gaudiya Math? Puri Maharaja? There's two Puri Maharajas.

[PADA: The GBC has been consulting with various Gaudiya Matha people, and openly advertising them, including Sridhara Maharaja. And worse, advertising these Gaudiya Matha's folks as ISKCON's shiksha gurus, rasika gurus, "senior advisors" etc. 

For example the 1980 GBC position paper "The Mahajanas Have Difficulties" was written "in consultation with (Sridhara Maharaja) ISKCON's higher authority." And this is a very highly offensive document attacking the Mahajanas as conditioned souls. So Indradyumna's program has been promoting these folks -- and their odious and offensive ideas, and bogus documents, all along. 

Right out of the gate the Indradyumna program began to blend their deviations with alleged faults in the pure devotees and Mahajanas, and they borrowed these ideas from the Gaudiya Matha. The GBC has never declared all these documents to be bogus and invalid either. Rather these horrific Indradyumna party's documents still stand as authentic GBC promoted materials even today.

Moreover, anyone who does not accept Sridhara's ideas such as "the GBC will vote in more acharyas every year at Mayapura," "zonal gurus" "gurus fall down" and his many other ideas, is booted out of ISKCON. People are being forced to accept Sridhara's apa-siddhanta -- or leave ISKCON. So, most of them left. And Indradyumna has adopted the Gaudiya Matha's idea, that gurus are often deviants and so forth.]

No, we should stay in ISKCON, our allegiance should be with Srila Prabhupada. Even if these personalities don't say something different from ISKCON and don't criticize ISKCON, still we shouldn't leave ISKCON because ISKCON is Prabhupada's movement. But I am simply dumbfounded by how many letters I'm getting even from disciples, that they want to accept these Gaudiya Math persons as their shiksha or diksha gurus.

[PADA: OK so your GBC people are introducing and promoting the Gaudiya Matha's people, and their ideas, and their offensive documents, and yet you are dumbfounded anyone would accept -- your own program? Who authorized you folks to promote the Gaudiya Matha's people, and their documents, and their ideas? 

Everyone else is dumbfounded that the GBC makes deviants and pedophiles into their acharyas, and everyone who allows, enables and empowers the worship of pedophiles "is in good standing." And the people who oppose their pedophile worship process are banned, sued, removed, exiled -- if not beaten or assassinated.]

Or even some of my disciples have left ISKCON taking re-initiation, which is completely bogus, in Gaudiya Math. You can't take re-initiation (chuckles). If your spiritual master is in good standing you can't just give him up because you think that someone else is more advanced, and you wanna take initiation from him. That means you've given up this spiritual master, and your so-called initiation with other spiritual master is bogus, so you are nowhere.

[PADA: But the GBC is promoting both Gaudiya Matha's gurus, and their own gurus, who are falling down left, right and center. The GBC also has a policy that they reinitiate people all the time. When gurus in their first wave crash into scandals, the GBC votes in another wave, and the people involved in the original wave of scandals have been part of the voting block that generates the next wave, and so on and so forth. 

For example, the original people who helped promote "The Mahajanas Have Difficulties" offensive document are considered as "members in good standing," even now, and some of them helped "vote in" more gurus. 

One lady we know has had four GBC gurus, she had one fall down, the next fall down, and then she was reinitiated etc. How can people who are deviating vote in more acharyas? Sorry, the GBC made this re-initiation process in consultation with Gaudiya Matha's people, and introduced this as the official policy of ISKCON. 

And when the GBC reinstates "oral sex with taxi drivers in the dham" as their Vishnupada guru, they simultaneously "vote in" people like Indradyumna as their sex with taxi dirvers co-gurus. How is sex with taxi drivers, or the people voted in that parampara, "in good standing"?]

YOU CAN FIND EVERYTHING IN ISKCON

[PADA: The 1936 Gaudiya Matha has had already all the post-1978 GBC's program of false gurus, and then banning, beating, molesting, lawsuits and murders of dissenters etc. And we will find all that process in ISKCON too. Yep, "everything" i.e. all of these same deviations, are also going on in ISKCON. Well, that is true. You can find every deviation from the Gaudiya Matha also in ISKCON. We agree. 

Of course, Indradyumna's party wanted to show people they were even better (more degraded) than the Gaudiya Matha, so they also included mass child molesting, LSD and Vodka gurus, porno swamis and so on -- to "better" (further) degrade the guru standards. In sum, the Indradyumna program is way worse than the Gaudiya Matha's. Even now Indradyumna's program has children worshiping pedophiles as their messiahs, or messiahs in samadhis etc.]

I'm not saying that there's no spiritual masters more advanced than me. There's many, within ISKCON and outside of ISKCON, in Vaisnava traditions. I'm not denying that. But because I may be on a lower level of realization as an ISKCON spiritual master, that does not mean that my disciples cannot go back to Godhead. 

I'm like a postman who takes a letter from Prabhupada and gives it to my disciple. The message is perfect. If you read that letter and you follow to the letter which is describing the pure process of devotional service, you will be connected to guru-paramparä, and you can go back to Godhead.

[PADA: But you GBC guys are the people sending the ISKCON folks over to other Mathas and societies?]

Although it is said in Upadeshamrta that a spiritual master cannot elevate his disciples beyond where he is at, every disciple in this movement has two spiritual masters: his immediate initiating guru and the siksha-guru for all of ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada. 

[PADA: False. In ISKCON the GBC has annointed maybe over 100 GBC as gurus, and made Sridhara Maharaja and others also the gurus of ISKCON, including  Narayan Maharaja was advertised as the GBC's "rasika guru of ISKCON." And anyone who disagrees -- that these people are "the gurus of ISKCON," gets booted out of ISKCON. Moreover since Indradyumna's "diksha gurus" are often fallen, and most of the others cover up for the failures, how can they absorb the sins of others since they are themselves sinful?] 

So maybe I can only elevate my disciples this much, but I am connecting them to Srila Prabhupäda, and he is capable of delivering one all the way back to Godhead. And besides, as I advance, my disciples also advance. It is very rare to find a pure devotee of the Lord in this world like Srila Prabhupada.

[PADA: Indradyumna is connecting people to his illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara, and he thinks that connects people to Krishna?]

So there's no reason to go outside of ISKCON. Devotees go outside of ISKCON because they want something deeper. 

[PADA: Nope. Devotees leave ISKCON because they are told they have promote the worship of various sexual predators, deviants, pedophiles and apa-siddhanta fools as acharyas -- and they leave because they do not want to participate in that offense, nor do they want their children to worship pedophiles.]

Whether they're qualified for something deeper or not, is another question, but I say, you can find everything in ISKCON. Everything. You may say, "But there's so many problems." But there's also problems in Gaudiya Math! 

[PADA: And the leaders are the people causing all these problems.]

We shouldn't be like a prostitute, going from one man to another. We're all properly initiated in a bona fide spiritual movement. We should stick to it, be loyal to it, don't disrespect the other organizations. Don't disrespect the persons there. Don't be a jack of all trade, master of none. Don't flow through all of these different organizations and be loyal to not one of them.

[PADA: But the GBC is sending people to these outside authorities?]


DON'T GO TO GAUDIYA MATH

So that's one attack on ISKCON. I have no problem if the Gaudiya Math people want to go and preach in some part of the world, and make members, and initiate them, I don't mind. There's very exalted souls in Gaudiya Math. But I don't like this if someone of them flies above ISKCON waiting for some devotee to drop. And then they drop down and pick up the meal and take it away (chuckles). So don't quote me that I'm offensive to Gaudiya Math and offensive to their members, I'm not. 

[PADA: It is natural when a religion promotes deviants and pedophiles as the gurus of that religion, people will leave and seek shelter of other organizations. One of the biggest book distributing ladies in UK told me she was going to marry a Christian man because -- she had no interest in promoting Jayatirtha. And she asked for my blessing, and I said yes -- the Christians worship a bona fide guru, you are better off there. And she was better off, and her children were not forced to worship pedophiles as their guru etc.]

But I'm an ISKCON man. And Prabhupäda told us, "Don't associate. Keep your distance." So at best I said, good fences make good neighbors.

So my instruction to my disciples is, don't go to Gaudiya Math. Don't even give it any question, don't be curious about what it is. "The curiosity killed the cat." So if you want to know about Gaudiya Math, I'm telling you about Gaudiya Math, there's many things I could say but... Don't be enamored, it is something else, it's very nice but it's not for us.

That includes Narayana Maharaja's group. Many of you don't know who Narayana Maharaja -- is or even not know what the Gaudiya Math is. But I want to get to you before they do. (laughter) Because they know there's many serious problems in ISKCON, and some of them are taking advantage.

[PADA: OK so the GBC are gurus, but they are making many serious problems. Gurus save people from problems, they do not generate a whole new wave of problems. If ISKCON is turning into what Lokanath swami says is "a ghost town," how can we say that is the proper system established by the acharya?] 

So let us conclude by offering our full dandavats to the members of Gaudiya Math... I personally know a number of the senior gurus in Gaudiya Math, and they are very exalted souls. By millions of lives more advanced than me. But let us not be naive about the motivations of some of their members.

Just like in our own ISKCON we can't be naive about the motivations of some of the members of ISKCON. Even with ISKCON members, Prabhupada has informed us, that we should make friendship with devotees on our own level, we should take instructions from those on higher level, we should be merciful to those who are on a lower level.

And considering those on a lower level, sometimes Prabhupada said we should not associate with them because their association is dangerous. We should just offer them respects in our mind. Vaisnava means one who believes Krishna is God, but he may be attached to money and sex. So you respect him in your mind, but you don't take his or her intimate association because you may be also influenced by desire for money and women.

[PADA: OK so we should not associate with persons who are inclined to illicit sex, opulent living, eating giant feasts, riding around in luxury cars, having female servants etc. -- rather we should worship them as "good as God" and as our acharyas. And by worshiping illicit sex, we may also be contaminated with the same desires. 

So why are they promoting worship of illicit sex, knowing it will contaminate the worshipers? We should not associate with deviating people, rather we should worship them as our acharyas. And Indradyuma is good pals with BB Govinda, who buried a porno swami in a samadhi. We should not be associated with those involved in deviations, rather we should worship people involved in severe deviations in samadhis.] 

So that's one attack on ISKCON. When you attack someone, you hurt them. So I speak like that, Gaudiya Math's attack on ISKCON, in the sense it's taking valuable ISKCON members, it's confusing ISKCON members. Some of their members are attacking us. We are not going to Navadvipa and to Mayapura, and canvassing for followers amongst their groups. We're not under attack, we're under defense. So I have to speak strongly.

[PADA: But GBC people did approach the Gaudiya Matha, and not vice versa.]

WHAT IS THE RITVIK PEOPLE?

Another strong attack on ISKCON is the ritvik people. How many of you know what is the ritvik movement ? Just a few of you. Okay, but we could speak for hours about that. But basically, the ritvik people, there's very strong movement now going around the world. The ritvik people say that, "Srila Prabhupada is meant to be the only initiating guru in ISKCON for the next 10,000 years."

[PADA: Well that is not correct, we said he would be the guru until some further pure devotees manifested, but that may or may not happen, it is speculation. Meanwhile none of the ritviks are saying that pedophiles and deviants are going to be initiating, either right now, for 10,000 years, or forever.]

There's too angles of vision of ritviks, either Prabhupada is meant to be initiating guru forever, or until another self-effulgent, self-realized pure devotee appears in ISKCON. Then that person can also accept disciples. And the way that they substantiate this is, number one, by showing the falldown of a number of ISKCON gurus. This means that philosophy is cracked because so many leading gurus have fallen down, they were not qualified. 

And the others will fall very soon. And, number two, from the history surrounding Prabhupada's departure. Prabhupada, before he passed away, he said that he will assign eleven of his disciples who were the ritviks, or officiating acaryas, to initiate on his behalf.

So, these are the two basic presentations of the ritvik people. I mean, it is quite involved, but these are the two basic presentations. They have different tape recordings of Prabhupada, and different things Prabhupada said, etc. Let us discuss these two things a little bit, so when the ritviks come to Russia - and they will come to Russia - you won't be bamboozled or bewildered by these arguments.

WILL ALL THE ISKCON GURUS FALL DOWN?

[PADA: All of the ISKCON gurus are participating in their concocted illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara. That means they are all already fallen. And when their gurus do fall down, their zones are devastated, most of the manpower is lost, and the zone maybe goes bankrupted. 

Is this the system Srila Prabhupada wanted to establish? In addition, while the gurus is falling down -- their policy of banning, beating, molesting, lawsuits and sometimes assassinations has been going on full tilt simultaneously. This is the system Srila Prabhupada ordered for his society? 

The managers of the society are supposed to contain these deviations, not declare that the leaders of these deviations are the messiahs of the religion -- which enables and empowers these deviations.]

So first of all, the first argument is that many gurus have fallen. Well, many have not fallen (laughter). More have not fallen than have fallen. Those of us who are initiating, at least I can say for myself, we are not pure devotees of the Lord. I am not. I don't see Krishna in Vrndavana. I don't cry tears of ecstasy when I chant Hare Krsna. I'm not and will never be on the level of Srila Prabhupada.

[PADA: We are gurus but "there are not too many of us falling down." So this is making it look like gurus in our parampara are commonly fallen. That is not what Srila Prabhupada says, he says it is an offense to consider gurus are falling down common souls. Also, most of them have not fallen is not accurate. Most of the 11 have fallen, and the ones who evidently did not fall -- supported the fallen ones and often covered up for them.]

But it does not mean that I'm gonna fall down. That would defeat the whole philosophy that you can advance in Kanëa consciousness to the stage of pure devotion by following the process of Krishna consciousness. But I can repeat what my spiritual master has said, I can set a good example for my disciples, and by following my example and hearing what Prabhupäda has said from me, you can become Krsna conscious.

[PADA: Srila Prabhupada never said it is common for gurus to fall into illicit sex with men, women and children.]

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