angel108b@yahoo.com
PADA: A follower of Narayan Maharaj (SD) started a debate with PADA about the origins of the jeeva. Of course, the original state of the soul is only one item among many that Narayan Maharaj misunderstood.
NM also helped promote and propagate various ISKCON GBCs and Tamal Krishna swami as parampara gurus, Krishna's successors, acharyas etc. -- which means -- NM was helping the whole Tamal / Bhavananda / Mayapur molester messiah's project. Meanwhile NM was helping Satsvarupa with his "Guru Reform" -- which ended up having all sorts of crack pots "voted in" as Krishna's acharyas like: Radhanath swami, Indradyumna swami, BB Govinda swami, Prithu, Bhakti Tirtha swami, Ravindra Swarupa and many others.
Lets also not forget that Satsvarupa's "50 man committee of reformers" mostly voted to excommunicate Sulochana -- which demonized him -- and helped get him murdered. OK there is karma associated with that too. Karma is like a row of dominos, one goes down, and then many other events spin off from there.
NM is like one of the people pushing down to topple the first row of dominos. And that makes him co-responsible -- OK at least in part -- for the results. And the results of his pushing the GBC gurus forward is -- many people were banned, beaten, molested, sued and killed.
So NM, and all of the people who supported him, including the GBC folks, are collectively responsible for the resulting karma of what they supported. In other words, NM and the supporters of NM are co-responsible for: Tamal's encouraging Bhavananda / Mayapur molesting empire; the bogus Guru Reform; the guru voting system; the attacks on devotees; the lawsuits and etc. And thus NM has that karma -- as well as the karma of making Radhanath a big ISKCON acharya etc. by NM's advocating for the people creating the "guru by vote system."
In sum, NM co-created this guru by vote system, and thus he is inter-connected and intwined with the karma, as are his followers. And that makes the NM people co-responsible for helping the system which has been promoting bogus gurus, for example one of the main henchmen of the New Vrndavana mess, and the process of burying pedophiles in the dham and etc. Thanks in part to the NM camp, Radhanath is now an acharya, and thus they share the karma of making this event happen.
Then again all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are in some way or other karmically and collectively responsible for the situation that has evolved in ISKCON, including that it has been discredited, emptied out and bankrupted. Almost everyone has had some sort of role in -- abandoning the ship to hand it over to the pirates, or acquescing, or allowing if not enabling this situation to evolve. Therefore NM's biggest problem is not the jeeva issue, his biggest problem is -- he has supported deviants as acharyas -- and supported their system now used to vote in more deviants as acharyas. That is part of his karma problem, he is co-responsible.
Anyway, back to the jeeva origins issue:
I said to KD that NM had claimed that BR Sridhara Maharaja is correct, and we originally started out in the brahmajyoti. He said Sridhara Maharaja never said we originated in the brahmajyoti, he said we originated in the tatatstha region (another term for brahmajyoti).
OK lets see what Sridhara Maharaja actually says:
Sridhara Maharaja: How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world?" This is a broad question, which requires some background information. There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.
[PADA: Right. Some souls start out in Vaikuntha, and they never fall down. Other souls, the lesser fortunate ones, fall down by "constitutional necessity." OK they are a sort of condemned class of souls who did not originate in Vaikuntha. Worse, they have to fall down as a constitutional necessity, which means they are more or less condemned souls right out of the gate. Why does Krishna make it "necessary" to have some souls with Him in Vaikuntha, and some souls to be in the brahmajyoti, where they fall and suffer, die repeatedly etc.]
The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.
[PADA: Right, so Sridhara Maharaja is saying we originated in the brahmajyoti, the Narayan Maharaja follower did not do his homework.]
Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.
[PADA: False. Srila Prabhupada says from the brahmajyoti we can only fall to here. There is no devotional service in brahman, so when we desire to be active, we become active in the material world.]
Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha.
[PADA: We are in brahman, and we are forgetting Krishna from there, but we have no idea who Krishna is in brahman. There are no Krishna relationships or devotional services in brahman, so how can we forget being engaged in Krishna's service, when we are not doing any service there.
That means the conscious choice to forget Krishna happens BEFORE we entered brahman. And bahirmukha means to turn our faces away from Krishna, same problem, if there is no Krishna there, we cannot turn away from Him because we do not see Him there.]
Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers.
[PADA: OK except we did not merely want to become masters, we wanted to become Krishna's competition, we became envious of Krishna. Being a master had a starting point of -- taking over Krishna's post of being the master.]
Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.
[PADA: Again the problem is not being addressed, how do some souls start in Vaikuntha and some souls start out in a lesser and inferior position, where they are prone to fall and suffer.]
The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger where he is surrounded with a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one is involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.
[PADA: Except Srila Prabhupada says that consciousness in brahman is not pure, it is defective. The souls in brahman can only fall here because they are not engaged in Krishna's service.]
Matter is not independent of spirit. In the brahmajyoti we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will some jivas have taken their chance in the material world.
They refused to submit to the supreme authority; they wanted to dominate. So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:
iccha-dvesa samutthena / dvandva-mohena bharata / sarva-bhutani sammoham /sarge yanti parantapa
"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the jiva: hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world."
[PADA: OK so there is hatred and lust manifested in brahman? That makes no sense. Hating whom? Lusting after what? No, there is no hate an lust in brahman, it is a neutral position. Sridhara Maharaja does not explain how hate and lust exists in brahman? And if no one even knows who Krishna is in brahman, how did they decide to be renegades from Krishna?]
At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha.
[PADA: Wait! The soul has "previous devotional activities." That means the soul was in Vaikuntha doing service. This contradicts that the souls start in brahman, where there are no devotional activities.]
Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura says the brahmajyoti state is worse than hell, because in brahman no one ever hears about Krishna, but sometimes even in hell a person can think of Krishna. So, the original state of the souls is to be in less than hell? And notice, he says that there are two classes of souls, ok one soul is with Krishna originally, one is not, he is basically following the Vatican idea. The Angels start with God, you rotten apple souls do not, that makes God the cause of the fallen souls. This is called mayavada. ys pd
Of course why didn't God start out everyone with Him? He has no sense of just behavior, he is biased with his children, jeepers, exactly what I was taught in Church! hee hee/ ys pd
SD: I know you have studied Srila Prabhupad's books thoroughly and are quite aware that he repeatedly instructs to at the appropriate time study the works of the previous acharya's particularly the goswamis. Sooner or later you may choose to do this or not.
PADA: The previous acharyas are not following the Vatican either? The idea that some souls start with God and some start in hell is what the Church teaches. You need to go past these Christian dogmas.
SD: Currently I guess we can agree to disagree on this point. I do find it interesting that you think that krishna's all-pervading spiritual energy the brahmajoti is hell.
PADA: Srila Bhaktivinode says it is worse than hell, there is no Krishna there, but you might hear of Krishna in hell. I find it interesting you are rejecting the idea of our acharyas.
SD: I would love for you to quote shastra on that point.
PADA: I find it interesting you think God starts off some in hell and some with Him, same as the church. Srila Bhaktivinode is shastra? In any case, there are people in Vaikuntha, and then lesser class people who are not started off there, so you are saying God creates two types of souls, the special liberated and the lesser class prone to fail, the chosen and not chosen ones.
SD: We understand that in our current situation desiring to reside in the brahmajoti would be hellish because there is no relationship with Krishna.
PADA: OK now you are arguing with yourself. You are saying there is no relationship with Krishna in brahman, that means we did not reject Him from brahman, because we do not know who He is in brahman. So .. the chosen ones never fail -- the non chosen fail, old testament idea. Some start in heaven some start in hell, Vatican idea. Same thing they taught me in church! You are not an angel in heaven, you were not chosen. Why are we preaching Vatican?
And same thing with NM saying we should vote in gurus, voting in the pope. Narayan Maharaja helped SDG write the Guru Reform Notebook, vote in gurus, Vatican. I am personally done with the Vatican!
SD: I've seen your rhetoric on this for over 30 years no interest in continuing this debate. We can agree to disagree on this.
PADA: Mayavadas are envious of God, that is why they say he causes some to be liberated and some to fail, they are blaming God for their fall down, they are envious ... In other words, you cannot explain why the Vatican idea is the correct idea.
SD: I'm asking you for the second and final time to disengage on this debate.
PADA: You were the person who said you wanted this to be a public debate? Good thing we did this in private then, you would not have lasted five minutes. I don't really care about this issue that much, Narayan Maharaja program of supporting voting in gurus -- like pedophiles -- into the parampara is the worst thing he did. NM helped them vote in Lokanath, Radhanath etc with his guru vote idea. NM helped Satsvarupa make the Guru Reform / Guru vote, worst thing ever ...
(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur conversation with Nora Morell Sept 1, 1936 published in Harmonist)
So we should have recourse to the Absolute Infinity. We should not be acting like shooting stars in flying away from Him, but we should go back to our original place.
conversation with Nora Morell Sept 1, 1936 published in Harmonist)
(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur from purport to Chaitanya Bhagavata Madhya Lila ch3 vs134)
Back to God, and back home is the message of Gaudiya Matha.
(Harmonist 25.1; June 1927)
(Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, conversation 12.26.1935)
(Srila Bhaktsiddhanta Saraswati Thakur conversation with Major Rana N. J. Bahadur at Armadale, Darjeeling on June 14th, 1935. Originally published in The Harmonist (Vol. XXXI, No.21) on the 27th of June, 1935.)
conversation with Nora Morell Sept 1, 1936 published in Harmonist)
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