Lokaram Dasa vs PADA 02 26 25

JD: A disciple of Vaisesika. Of course ... guru is one. He might be pure ... he might be a pedo. Not black and white. It is all one! 

And anyone who does not think guru is pure and also sometimes a pedo is ... beaten up and pushed out the door with prejudice. It is all one prabhu! Except when you are not one with us ... you are out the door. It is all one except when it isn't.

How could anyone say that guru might be pure, and he might be a pedo, and think that Krishna will be pleased placing pedos into His guru parampara?

PADA: Oh oh pilgrims, the GBC has evidently run out of seasoned warrior defenders like Mukunda swami, Ravindra swarupa, Satsvarupa swami and others. So they are sending in their pitch hitter / novice warrior, Lokaram dasa. This guy gets and "E" for effort, but it is not a passing grade. 

He agrees that various GBC gurus have acted in abominable and horrendous behaviors, but that does not mean all of them are bad. Right, except that the actual Vedic principle of the Vaishnava guru parampara is -- "guru is one." So it really does not matter "how many" are rotten, degraded, fallen or horrendous, even one rotten guru taints their whole system.

People used that argument on Sulochana, and he had a rather gross but effective come back. Sulochana would say "Oh, you mean there are 'not too many' dog manures in your sweet rice? Who wants to eat your sweet rice that has even one dog manure in it"? 

Of course that would stump people right away. 

So, the people who got 2/3 show of hands voted into the GBC's homosexual and pedophile guru lineage are not all bad. OK but why did they accept a certificate from that lineage? And why did they empower and enable that system, which bans, beats, molests, sues and kills Vaishnavas. 

And he also says -- it is not my position to tell Jayapataka that Srila Prabhupada warns us not to take sins, because we will suffer. Well sorry, we told him not to take sins, but he did anyway. He and the other 10 suffered in all sorts of ways as a result. 

Then he says guru tattva is not all black and white. Well sorry, if it is white i.e. full in purity -- it is as pure as Krishna -- and if it is black i.e. contaminated or impure -- it is not as pure as Krishna. Parampara guru is as pure as Krishna, or he is not a parampara guru. Anyway, poor guy's head is full of all sorts of deluded ideas. Lets hope he can be saved from all this.

ys pd angel108b@yahoo.com

LOKARAM DASA: Even in a court of law, at least in America, there is explicit acknowledgement of the limitations of empirical evidence (pratyaksha) and rational argument (anumana) in the notion that the prosecution must show "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the defendant committed the crime of which they are accused.

Here's an AI-generated explanation of the phrase "beyond a reasonable doubt" --

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" means there's such strong evidence for someone's guilt that no reasonable person would have significant doubts about it. It's the highest standard of proof used in criminal trials.

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The phrase originated in English common law during the late 18th century. While its exact origins are debated, it became prominent through cases like the 1770 Boston Massacre trials, where lawyer John Adams emphasized that jurors must be convinced "beyond reasonable doubt." The standard was formally established in legal writings and judicial opinions throughout the late 1700s and became a cornerstone of Anglo-American criminal law.

To understand the phrase literally:

"Beyond" means exceeding or surpassing

"Reasonable" refers to what a logical, rational person would think

"Doubt" is uncertainty or hesitation about accepting something as true

Put together, it means the evidence must be so convincing that any lingering uncertainty would be considered unreasonable by rational standards. It doesn't require absolute certainty (which is nearly impossible), but rather certainty to the point where any remaining doubts would be considered far-fetched or implausible by reasonable people.

This standard exists to protect innocent people from wrongful conviction while still allowing for justice when evidence is sufficiently strong.

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So, I am personally convinced that the available evidence shows that Srila Prabhupada was not poisoned. This is not an absolute claim, but my reasonably formed opinion. Anyone who cannot distinguish between his own opinions and ontological facts is in a state of bewilderment caused by a preponderance of the lower modes of nature, and a corresponding deficiency of sattva-guna. 

So your point J Prabhu is well taken. ISKCON would be a much more civil society if its members were more willing to acknowledge when they are stating an opinion rather than an ontological fact. Too much rajo-guna and tamo-guna.

At any rate, the burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused. I think Mayesvara Prabhu does a good job countering the various arguments put forward by the prosecution, despite whatever other faults his presentation may have.

PADA: I was the person who got the 1977 tapes from a person who was present in Vrndavana in 1977, he said he and others knew that Srila Prabhupada was being p*isoned at the time. And despite he and others knew, they were afraid to be the ones to disclose it for fear of their own lives. When I went to a Bengali writer to make the first transcript, he said "this is a homicide." 

And I played the tape to a Brijabasi and he immediately started crying, because he knew Prabhupada personally, and knew Brijabasi talk and how he would speak, and thus he knew what he was saying here. So I was already convinced, and so were others, way before we had the hair sample, whisper audio and so on, because of the statements of Srila Prabhupada. 

If someone says, please do not torture me and put me to death, there must be a good reason he has to say that. Anyway, a lot of people are accepting the evidence and ISKCON and the people around ISKCON are going to have to deal with it. Of course this was the same thing with the child mistreatment, everyone said this is all me making up a bunch of lies and etc. Then we had to help have them sued for $400,000,000. 

And Mayesvara was helping the GBC's legal case, saying these children are greedy fools who want to destroy ISKCON. He has always said everything is lies, but maybe it isn't. Anyway, there are people listening to the evidence and they are accepting it, just like they also eventually accepted the child mistreatment evidence, and that is not going to change no matter what counter arguments are presented. ys pd

Lokarāma Dāsa: Mr. PADA, what kind of disciple stands by and lets his Guru be poisoned out of fear of losing his own life? It is all a bunch of Kali Yuga trash gossip. I feel very sad for neophyte devotees who dedicate so much time for criticizing their godbrothers, wasting literally hundreds and thousands of precious hours, instead of making real spiritual advancement themselves. 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has said: "To bring a person from the clutches of maya is very, very hard. If lust or any other attachment is present in that person's heart, it will go away very soon if he is chanting and remembering and listening to Hari-katha. 

Be very careful. Don't criticize devotees or non-devotees. First look at your own condition and try to purify yourself. Is there any lust in you? Is there any duplicity in you, or not? Be worried about that. Don't worry for others. Sri Guru and Lord Sri Krsna are responsible for others. You cannot do anything to help them, so you have no right to criticize."

PADA: Lokarāma Dāsa -- As soon as I said there is a mass child mistreatment problem, I was banned, exiled, removed and told to chant my rounds, study my own heart etc. One of my main associates was then taken out, and I would have been taken out, except the FEDS were tapping their phones. Then the three enforcers the GBC folks sent to get me here in Berkeley were arrested when they were coming after me, because there was undercover surveillance. 

Otherwise, I would not be here now. So I am not allowed to criticize, but they are allowed to take us out. That is not a very fair assessment. As it turned out, I was correct, there was evidently several thousand child victims, so not only I was not a liar, calling me a liar has been enabling all this to go on. My own condition is, that I had to seek help from law enforcement, the FEDS, the media, the courts and so on -- just to survive all this. 

Not criticizing mass child mistreatment enables mass child mistreatment. And if they would take my friends and me out, and mass mistreat children, why would they not mistreat anyone else? Like Prabhupada? Yeah you guys told me not to criticize, so we had to have you sued for $400,000,000. That means, if you had listened to me, you guys would have saved the children and the expense. 

The Jayapataka people complained to me -- my helping the Bangalore lawsuit, child mistreatment lawsuit, BBTI lawsuit, 1986 Dallas lawsuit and other lawsuits, SWAT raids etc. has cost them $100,000,000. OK that is what happens when you don't listen to people like me. I also told Jayapataka that we cannot take sins or we have to suffer in 1979, and he just laughed at me, but look at the state of him now. He is like a sin vacuum cleaner over loaded. I gave him good advice, he would not listen. So listening to Hari Katha is good, but if we don't also listen to people who are giving good practical advice, then ISKCON has to suffer and it has. ys pd

DA: Lokarāma Dāsa it’s a fantasy to think that “devotees should not be criticise” for as long as a “devotee” is in a human body, that person is under the spell of maya, ego and karma, totally FALIBLE! and will be helplessly making mistakes no matter how hard they try. And If someone is calling out on their mistake, erroneous action and behaviour, perhaps a little bit of humbleness will allow you to see the part of the truth or total truth that one can not see in themselves.

Lokarama Dasa have you ever been surrounded by murderers and cooperators of it? I bet not, because if you did, you would understand that at any moment you tried to defy them, you are the next to be killed. And some people are way more afraid than others and if some people did not act on stopping it for whatever reason, I bet they are dying inside for not doing it.

But the truth does not require braves or weals to come out, it will come out eventually with force or slowly. Sri Krishna will not allow His son Srila Prabhupada to be unfairly treated like that, He is justice.

It is evident to everyone, it’s like a glaring fire in from your face that the so called “gurus” are bunch of fallible human beings or perhaps beings in human body committing horrendous atrocities towards the helpless children, and the same people are running the GBC or are in positions of authorities somewhere in ISCKON. Let’s not be naive! PADA, sorry to hear that you went through that, it must have been utterly painful for you.

PADA: Yeah thanks! Not only thousands of other kids were harmed, and badly, my own kids grew up in constant fear and anxiety that the GBC heads would orchestrate taking their own dad (me) away and put me into an early grave -- at any moment. No child should have to grow up thinking the heads of their church want to eliminate their parents and put them into an early grave. 

These leaders wanted to destroy the childhood of not only their victims, but destroy the childhoods of anyone advocating for the victims, like mine. And Lokarama says, what is the problem, just chant. Well ok, but he should be telling the people who are hunting me like a dog to chant, so us dogs can live in peace. 

The FEDS told me, your friend is gone and -- you are next, and if US FEDS had not stepped in and tapped the West Virginia campus phones, you would not be here now, you were only just a few hours from being taken out. Hunting Vaishnavas like dogs and then expecting them to sit peacefully and chant -- while simultaneously being hunted -- just sounds very cruel, callous and unfeeling, just ask my kids. Even the karmi media people tell me, your opponents just have no feelings for other beings, that is self evident. Thanks for your support, it means a lot. ys pd

Lokarāma Dāsa: PADA, I am giving you good advice, and if you don't listen, you have to suffer, and you are.

PADA: Lokarāma Dāsa When I said children are suffering, your advice for me to stop protesting is how thousands of kids ended up suffering, that enabled the problem. That caused thousands of kids to suffer, and caused me to have to help them sue the society for $400,000,000. 

Sorry, when children are suffering it is our duty to protest, or we are implicated. And the children and the court agreed these leaders are implicated. Advising whistle blowers on crimes against children to not protest, enabled these crimes. Mayesvara was helping the GBC legal team working against the child victims, and he said the victims are just greedy money grabbers. 

And that is why he is so solidly disliked by many of these victims, he was suppressing them, just like he suppresses everything else. For the record, the GBC and Mayesvara guys pleaded "no contest" on the $400,000,000 lawsuit. They knew it was over, and I was correct. And for the record, when it comes to leaders orchestrating hunting Vaishnavas like dogs to eliminate them, you need to advise the hunter party and not the hunted dog. ys pd

Lokarāma Dāsa: DA, Bhakti is not black and white. There are many shades of bhakti and of guru-tattva. As a baseline, we should respect all souls, offer extra respect to anyone who chants Hare Krishna, offer sincere obeisances to those who are committed to the path of bhakti, and enthusiastically serve those who have fully dedicate themselves to the Lord and who are spreading His message all over the world (NOI 5).

It's irrational to think that because some ISKCON gurus have fallen and have done horrendous things, then all of them must be fallible.

Advanced Vaisnavas give up malicious criticism because they recognize it to be an anartha. Yes, they still call a spade a spade, but they never, ever, ever call a Vaisnava a non-Vaisnava or indulge in Vaisnava aparadha.

PADA has an entire website devoted to Vaisnava aparadha. Just look at how brazenly he insults His Holiness Jayapataka Swami, claiming to be in a position to "instruct" him! Jayapataka Swami is one of the most elevated Vaisnavas on the planet!

PADA: Lokarāma Dāsa: Jayapataka's Mayapur realm is where much of the worst cases of child mistreatment happened, according to numbers of victims. And when JPS was being sued for $400M by us here, he came to Los Angeles -- and he just ran at me across the Watseka street screaming at me "rarrrrhhhhh." That was all he could say on all this. He had not even one intelligent word to say. I thought he was going to pounce on me. Very aggressive. 

But all of them were on the Watseka sidewalk glaring at me, Mayesvara, Giriraj, JPS, Jayadvaita, Badri, their lawyers etc. None of them spoke to me, despite they knew I was gathering testimony for the $400M lawsuit. That means they did not care what the victims said. I told JPS in 1979 we were ALL ordered not to take karma, and we were ordered DO NOT DO THIS repeatedly, and Srila Prabhupada said if we take karma we will suffer, get sick, fall down, or both. 

And all of the 11 either got sick, fell down, or both, and some of them departed early. And collectively they made huge public scandals and lawsuits etc. Sorry, saying that children are being mistreated is not malicious criticism, it is pointing to an issue that needs to be rectified. Jayapataka is the main ring leader of the Mayapura child mistreatment rings, webs and nests, sorry -- that makes him implicated as a lead orchestrator. 

Yep, as soon as we said there is a mass child mistreatment out cropping, we were "insulting great Vaishnavas." Nope, a great Vaishnava does not orchestrate a mass crimes against children process, and assassinations of those who protest all this child mistreatment. ys pd