[PADA: It is amazing that various Gaudiya Matha folks, BR Sridhara Maharaja, BV Narayan Maharaja, Gaura Govinda Maharaja -- and others -- insist we were never with Krishna, which Srila Prabhupada says is "tinged with Mayavada" and yet these folks are welcomed right into ISKCON by the GBC. As per usual, we got entangled with yet another group over the same issue -- the "original constitutional position of the soul" idea. Our idea is -- that we are ORIGINALLY with Krishna -- and we fell from that position into the material world.
We recently got entangled in another discussion with some folks, who among other things told me I am "offending Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja." I cannot say for certain what Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja says himself on this topic, but his sympathizers sure raked me over for not agreeing that the soul's original position is HERE in the material world.
For example one of them said we originated from Mahavishnu, and we were expelled into the material energy. OK same thing, the souls original position is -- to start here in the material world. One said we were in a dormant state, then we were coming out from Mahavishnu. The original status of the souls are "a dormant state"? Again, sounds Mayavada.
BR Sridhara Maharaja said we originated in brahmajyoti, and people like BV Narayan Maharaja, Gaura Govinda Maharaja and others said BR Sridhara Maharaja is correct. OK so originating in Brahmajyoti is clearly Mayavada.
Then they sent me quotes how the souls have been in ignorance and lust since time immemorial. Umm, we never disagreed with that? We just think there was a time BEFORE we fell -- a time that we were not in ignorance, and we were with Krishna.
Overall they have no explanation for:
A) What is our original position, and original consciousness?
B) Why did we fall?
C) Where did we fall from?
Meanwhile they mix it all up. We are eternally conditioned and fallen i.e. "nitya baddha." Simultaneously they say -- we forgot Krishna, which means we are not nitya baddha, we were at one time Krishna conscious. So it seems their sangha has lots of confused and indeed contradictory ideas, same as the BR Sridhara maharaja et al. folks. Anyway, here is part of what we discussed:
That is unnecessary.
Puranjan Das seems not to understand the sastra that we are trying to explain to him, with the eyes of shastra if you can not understand then, what to do? You depend on the mercy of the self-realized sadhus be upon you the least and perhaps, that is why I quote the Acaryas but you seem to disregard their commentaries.
[PADA: I asked what is the original state of the soul, and you and some of your pals said the souls start here in the material world. That is ALSO basically what the Catholic Church teaches, that conditions souls are originally placed here by GOD. So you are saying God tosses His children into the hell of this material world as their original state, and so does the Vatican Church. I am saying that this is not a very advanced idea, its taking Vaishnava siddhanta backwards.
Why are you preaching Catholic Church siddhanta is the actual question? Then your folks criticized that I do not have the proper "samskaras" being born in the Church. Nope. Being in the Church, I was taught that the fallen souls START HERE. So it was the perfect samskara for me to hear that, so I could recognize it later when others (like you guys) preached the same thing.]
ND: See, the prerogative is the following, Puranjan says that we start off in Vaikuntha and that we have fallen down. And we know that we are not coming from Vaikuntha because from there you can not return to the material realm.
[PADA: So the souls started off here in the material world, that means we started in a hellish material world situation. How is that a superior explanation? Why would you say that God tosses His children into a hellish position, as their original state?]
ND: Krsna says, promising us that having forgotten Him, that reminding us of Him will bring us to His eternal companionship, that is the eternal constitution of the soul where we will really belong
[PADA: If we originally "belong with Krishna," then why did He place us here instead? Why didn't He place us where He is? And now you are saying we "forgot Krishna." If we started here in the material world, then how did we forget Krishna -- because the material world is the absence of Krishna?
When I asked you what is our original state, you quoted that we all started here, and we are nitya baddha (eternally conditioned). OK so we are eternally (nitya) in hell is also a Christian idea as well. We are not factually nitya baddha, we were at one time liberated and we fell to here. We may have been fallen for a long time, but that is not our original status.
And you also cited that we have been in lust and ignorance for eons of time. Now you are saying we were once with Krishna, and we forgot being with Krishna? You are arguing with yourself. If we have forgot Krishna, that means we were with Krishna previously. How can we forget Krishna, if we have never seen Him, been with Him, or known Him?
You claim we are nitya baddha, but you also say we knew of Krishna previously and we forgot. That means we are not nitya baddha, we once knew of Krishna, as you agree. Knowing of Krishna is NOT the baddha status, its the liberated status.]
ND: Instead like that of (start) here and that is a fact, and sastra also explains that in the same way. This is consciousness. I mentioned way before, cit. And PADA continues to belittle and mis - appreciate what vaisnavas are telling us along with sastra.
[PADA: You are the person who said that we start here in the material world, at the same time you say we have forgot Krishna. So how did we forget Krishna if we started away from Krishna? And why would you agree with the Vatican, that we start in hellish conditions of the material world?]
ND: And the excuse is a Catholic Vatican ideas syncretic understanding is not necessary, you should get the pure thing.
[PADA: I do not think shastra agrees with you, the Gaudiya Matha, Sridhara Maharaja, Gaura Govinda Maharaja, and with the Vatican -- that God starts His children originally in hellish conditions. That would make God a tyrant, He starts off His children in the hell of birth and death in the material world.]
ND: We also find in the sastra the line explaining it, "jivera svarupa hoy, nitya krsna das", Kaviraja Gosvami would mention, the living entity original consciousness is to be an eternal servant of Krsna.
[PADA: Wait! You said our original position is here in the material world, nitya badda. Now you are saying we are originally Krishna consciousness, nitya Krishna das. This is like the puppy chasing his tail around. You said we are not originally nitya Krishna das, we start here, we originated here in the material world, and we are nitya baddha.
You are going around in a big circle, now we are originally Krishna consciousness. That is the result of hearing from these tinged sources. These are the same circular logic problems we have with the BR Sridhara, BV Narayan and Gaura Govinda maharajas folks.
You folks have meanwhile not explained why God causes people to be in hell by placing some souls here at their original state, and some souls in Vaikuntha as their original status. You are blaming God for the fall of the fallen. So we are eternally servants of Krishna, therefore, God places us in hell where we won't be serving Him? Meanwhile, we are originally, Krishna das? This is very confused, which means you are hearing from the confused.]
ND: Let's put it on perspective and you will find that, when Bhagavatam explains that there is no beginning of: karma, ignorance, time... in that sense, we are speaking about eternal life, the form of the living entity is that he is to be realized as an eternal servant of Sri Krsna in life, practically, this is the means of the sadhana and practices that we take, starting off here.
[PADA: If there is no beginning to our being in the material world, and we have been here for all eternity, that means God put us here in the first place and we did not fall, He made us to start off -- here, because He put us here originally. Again, that is Vatican idea, we start here.
If God starts us fallen souls here as you stated, then God is the person who is the origin of karma, ignorance, lust, anger, deceit and in sum --- our forgetfulness of God was created by Him and not us. You are making God the cause of falling, and all these subsequent evils, because He places His children into these evil states as their original consciousness. You are blaming God for the fall of the soul, which is again, Church idea, God puts us HERE.]
ND: Off course, forgotten since time immemorial of our constitutional position as krsna-dasas as well.
[PADA: OK so first of all you said we are nitya baddha since time immemorial, and now you are saying we are not actually nitya baddha, but we are "Krishna das" as our original constitutional nature. And moreover, you are now restating that we forgot Krishna, which means we were with Him previously. It seems you are fighting your own shadow? Again this is the result of hearing from confused people, then the followers are also confused.]
ND: So, while sastra is very clear, mister PADA here still want to say that we are giving God some suffering or some pain because we are just speaking about that there is not a time where you can consider that we started.
[PADA: I never said there was a time we started? Krishna is eternal and we are His particles. I ask, what is the soul's original position, the original constitutional consciousness of the soul? And you said previously, we souls start here originally.
Yet just now also contradict yourself and said we are nitya Krishna das, that is what we are originally. OK that is what I said at the start of all this? We are originally servants of Krishna, and we are always and eternally servants of Krishna, it never changes. That means its not a post that starts and stops, it is our original and eternal status. That means nitya baddha is not our original state, its an artificial imposition once we try to renegade from God.]
ND: To be ignorant, or that you started to forget, or when did you start to be entangled in the material realm and not being Krsna's servant, forgetting that you have a eternal nature and so on, fallen to this downtrodden condition that you ignore where you go, what you do, what you are etc, that is avidya, anadi avidya is the nature of us here.
[PADA: OK now you are agreeing there is a time we started to forget Krishna, and a time we started to entangle in the material world. So we we were not always forgetting and not always entangled. That is what I said at the start. Then you said that is wrong, we did not start out with Krishna, we started out here.]
ND: There is no time where you can say you fell to this precise condition you are in.
[PADA: OK we fell here at some time or other, we were not here previously. It does not matter if we know the precise time. And that means your friends who said we originate in the body of Mahavishnu -- and we start here in the material world are -- wrong. We fall to the material world from another world, this is not our original state.]
ND: I know people don't get this easily, but it is the truth and sastra, and Krsna and devotees present it like this.
[PADA: You have presented both views simultaneously, that we fell to here from some other place (OK Vaikuntha) and we also started here. You are saying our original state is to be in originated in both the material and spiritual world simultaneous. That is not possible. We have to have originated in one place or the other. We cannot be both nitya baddha and nitya Krishna das consciousness at the same time, and that is why Krishna delineates these worlds, according to our consciousness.]
ND: If you don't accept it then that might as well be your samskara that you say you are born in catholicism etc, no pun.
[PADA: You are the person who said you agree with the Catholics, we started here?]
ND: This is why acharyas say, we are starting off here.
[PADA: No, the acharyas never say we start off in the hell of the material world. You are citing the Vatican, again.]
ND: And so we should take up krsna consciousness, otherwise we know nothing about Krsna.
[PADA: So Krishna places us here in the material world, where we no nothing about Krishna, so we have to suffer in 8,400,000 species of repeated births and deaths because -- He wants some of His children to be in a hellish state?]
ND: When Srila Prabhupada mentions that we are fully Krsna conscious beings, that means that this is your jiva-lakshan, the potency of the jiva-shakti is his eternal nature to becoming Krsna conscious practically from here, but is not a fact.
[PADA: You said it is a fact, we are eternally nitya Krishna das. Being originally Krishna conscious does not mean starting off in the material world and having some hidden potency, it means we are actually Krishna conscious beings originally. We hide the jiva's potency when we try to renegade from God. God does not put us here, we put ourselves here by being renegades. Why would God place some of us here, and hide our potency to be His servant?]
ND: I do not see people very Krsna conscious around here.
[PADA: Right, so Krishna starts us off here, where people are not Krishna conscious, that makes God the cause of our illusion, He places us here where people are not Krishna conscious. Why are you saying God is the cause of making us in illusion? We originate, where there is no Krishna consciousness? Why would God place us in illusion as our original state?]
ND: Of those who are forgotten, but of those who are in the path of remembrance, I see them as nitya krsna das sadhana-siddhas.
[PADA: OK but if as you say, we start here, then there is no Krishna consciousness to remember?]
ND: If you are also taking up sadhana in this world then, you should know the real nature of things. You also mentioned that, "Why would He make us contaminated at the start? That is what I am objecting to, to say Krishna creates contaminated things at the start is not a good way to present the Lord."
Then, why does Krsna create the material world at all and especially if you would come here if you are already with Him in Vaikuntha? You can not get in Vaikuntha with any trace of maya. Maya doesn't exist there. This is a contaminated place and you should be aware that you are deep in it before you could get to any sastra injunction then, when you start then to nickpick and backbicking the devotees that you always do, especially around levitating in the false ego ideas and conceptions. You say this you say that ... instead of trying to understand what is being said with a favorable mind to the devotees.
[PADA: I am favorable to the devotees. If they say we are originally nitya Krishna das, and originally nitya baddha simultaneously, its my job to tell them that is contradiction and its not possible to be both nitya baddha and nitya Krishna at the same time. If we are nitya Krishna then we cannot be nitya baddha and vice versa. Your preaching is simply confusing people, and its giving Krishna a bad name to say He kicks His children into the hell of the material world as their original state. You are attacking God.]
ND: As everyone of us is devotee, thus there are degrees of elevated or not so elevated consciousness as well. We are here only assisting in your progress in any sort of way. And you are presenting your facts also, but you may not be aware of your theory does not have practical sense. This is what happens with the majority of the devotees who have never ever got the real chance to live with a living sadhu mahatama, and learn sastra from him.
You go on believing anything you heard -- just because you think its right, but without presenting any single evidence of your facts, just that you heard it and you believe that -- instead of proving the Bhagavatam? That is misbehaving as nitya krsna das, you are not fully Krsna conscious, that is a fact. The misgiving is there about you committing offences to sadhus all over the place.
I know your predicament many years ago already. And its nice to be telling you finally, before you continue to give meaning to our diligent answers to you, and then say: oh these babaji folks believe that we come from brahman and that we are starting off in hell as krsna children."
[PADA: OK but you are the persons who said we start here in the material world, which is hell of birth and death. And you are saying what I was told in Church, we start here.]
ND: You are trying to cast us as apa-siddhanta, on us or anyone else, without proper attitude. It is futile endevear. What you do is that no devotees want to take association much from you really. The vaisnavas are displeased with you and then the Lord is displeased by your attitude.
But still, when we say the sastra speaks for it self, you do not need to put it on our heads because you are missing the presentation that vaisnavas so nicely gave about your points in question. Is very clear by this outcome that you are not interested in understanding but on placing syncretic ideas over everyone else and pass it as your fully Krsna conciousness being.
You are not. Well, it can be but as I mentioned there are two ways to be Krsna conscious, and that is favorable or unfavorable, you are herewith proving that you are not favorably disposed but more like that of an asura that can't stop thinking about Krsna (be it his devotees, his sastra, parafernalia like siddhanta, etc) unfavorably, and rejecting this their favorable or anukul-bhava association.
That is the results of the offence you just committed. I think you are not aware of the reaction of your offence committed or of any and I was trying to come to an understanding because you are not showing off as nitya krsna das, this is why I say you start off here, everyone swallowed by the bahiranga-maya-shakti is in ilusion and absolutely forgotten about his eternal nature as servant of Krsna.
[PADA: OK but now you are agreeing with me, we were with Krishna and we forgot him? You are arguing with your own shadow.]
ND: Therefore those who are here like us, we start off here, consciously gain more and more help from sacidananda bhakti-devi and rise up to the eternal constitutional with which we are, even when our constitution is eternal servant of krsna we have been forgotten by being here, since time immemorial, then you come off saying that this is an Vatican Christian idea.
[PADA: We forgot Krishna because we are originally once Krishna consciousness, and we also originally start here which is not Krishna consciousness, you are arguing with yourself. You are giving two contrary ideas at the same time.]
Hare Krsna
[PADA: That is why I am speaking about these sadhus, they are confusing people, and that is also why their preaching is not being widely accepted. These babajis cannot get much of a program going because they cannot make sensible arguments and logical presentations. And you are a good example of the confusion they create. If you folks have a sensible explanation for your constant contrary statements, send that to me and we will post it. ys pd]
Dear PADA: Of course, the tatastha riverbed itself is actually the geographical place we are speaking about, but without the river which digged its riverbed, this riverbed would not even exist and anyway, except if it is a very spectacular canyon, no one would even speak about it if there is no water in it. On contrary, we speak about Missouri or La Loire because of their respective water. Therefore, the river defines itself a geographical place AND is somehow also the place itself made only of molecules of water So it is the same with tathasva : both the jivas themselves AND a geographical area.
ReplyDeleteYou understand? Like an object : it is somewhere, meaning in a geographical place but it also fills a certain volume of space which only itself fills. Therefore it becomes also the place itself. Consequently this object is both in a geographical place and this place itself.
[PADA: Yes, the brahmajyoti is sometimes called the demarcation area between the spiritual and material worlds. And there are many souls living in an impersonal state in that brahmajyoti. And so it is also thus referred to as the "tatastha" region. Tatastha means, the bank of a river that can go this way or that. So the souls as a general principle can go one way or other, spiritual or material worlds.
Unfortunately, the souls in the brahman can only come back to here in the material world. So its not exactly that the souls there can flow back to Krishna. They have to come back here, perform devotional service, please Krishna, and then Krishna will release them back to Vaikuntha. So the tatastha is the definition of the souls, who are in an impersonal "dormant" state, and tatastha is also the place where those souls congregate, are accumulated and kept, so its also a place. Its like a prison area for the certain types of prisoners. However, its not our original state, that was my point. We originated with Krishna and later we fell to the material world, or to brahman, or residing dormant in the body of Mahavishnu when the creation is withdrawn etc. ys pd
M Dasi: It seems to me that these devotees go to "other sanghas" for "higher rasa." Then they end up with confusion. I could not follow this ND person's idea at all.
ReplyDeleteWe forget Krishna. Means ... at one time are with Him. Then at the same time, we start here. But here is ... no Krishna? How can we be both with Krishna, forgetting Him, and never being with Krishna ... at the same time? Do they not even understand they are making no sense?
PADA: Yes, its always the same thing with these guys. We are dormant (mayavada) then come from Mahavishnu (we start here). Or we are in brahman (and then we HAVE to fall to here from brahman, so we start here indirect). Or just straight up, we start here. That means Krishna is placing us in the hell of birth and death illusion at our original state. Then, after establishing that Krishna is some sort of mean Devil who puts His children into hellish conditions as their original state, they want to discuss rasika? Heh heh heh. Confused is putting it mildly. Yes, this is all Vatican jeeva tattva, there is no rasika in it whatever, its a mundane idea of God. ys pd
Dear PADA: Since the zonal acarya era Vaishnava leaders only recruit cheap followers from poor countries, or maybe jails, prison inmates. "The only gentlemen that listen when we speak are jailbirds". So these folks simply infested ISKCON to exploit the material facilities ISKCON is providing. No intelligent Westerners put a foot into ISKCON anymore. This new congregation is even shaking the GBC down: "You threw out all the good devotees so you cannot tell us what to do, we tell you what we want". The leaders practically allowed a whole army of thousands of prakritas to take control of the movement that refuse to yield and freely exercise that right that "we the congregation, we are ISKCON you leaders do what we say". So to discuss with these folks is no friendly undertaking, they simply make you understand to stay away from ISKCON. That's the reason why they never agree with what Prabhupada disciples say.
ReplyDelete[PADA: Yes, really the bottom line is, as soon as a Prabhupada disciple says "here is what Srila Prabhupada says" then we are bogus, offenders, deviants, its really a war against the acharya and the teachings of the acharya. And any followers of Prabhupada are the bad guys for -- quoting the acharya. Meanwhile, they also cannot build much or a preaching platform themselves, no one knows about these Narasingha maharaja programs, babaji programs etc., they are not effective in spreading the mission. They just pick up some left overs from ISKCON and try to exploit that process. ys pd]
Ananta Das Babaji wasn't known to attack the line, I even give you evidence, where he tells a devotee who is going to repeat some of the anti-party propaganda and stops him, as he does not wish to hear it. Mahanidhi did do some bad stuff as his time in ISKCON, but I'm sure we can both agree that was more to do with his taking of false positions, and worshipping false people. He's so far as a Babaji, in the Advaita Parivar, he has not had a fall down again as far as all evidence points too.
ReplyDeleteAs for Srila ACBVSP, He used to visit Srila Radha Govinda Das Babaji (Who was in Vrindavana and often was at the Radha Kund), who sent his disciple Sadhu Maharaj, to Srila ACBVP. Sadhu Maharaj has had his issues, but I think it's due more to who he was following. I followed Srila ACBVSP myself, as a Rtvik Prabhupadanuga, but as I read the previous acaryas, and seen things like Siddha Pranali are bona fide and such, I moved on as I felt no truth in either ISKCON gurus, the Prabhupadanugas are in shambles and have no method, and GM is just as bad as the other two. The attack on Siddha Pranali for instance, is quite off. Srila ACBVSP even told Hayagriva that he would be getting it from Guru, in like '67. Issue is, Srila Prabhupada seen the Baby Boomers and their degeneracy, and knew how gullible they are, and many do go and buy false Siddha Pranali. But Siddha Pranali is never bought, that is a fake form, which Srila Ananta Das Babaji chased these people off in the 60s and 70s with the support of the rest of the Radha Kund community (Being the Mahant of it). NM is also off here, on another slander mission, Srila Ananta Das Babaji didn't just give Babaji-vesh to those who came to him freshly, that is not at all fact. NM was trying to keep his disciples from leaving to a man who spoke on highly Rasika topics, and well, he himself knew this as he read Srila Ananta Das Babaji's books.
Even if Srila ACBVSP told you not to associate with the people there, does that give license to commit Vaisnava Apradha? Especially as you don't know the man. He was of a VERY high Calibre.
[PADA: I am really not attacking Ananta Das Babaji Maharaja per se in this article. People claiming to be his defenders are arguing these points. I do not know what ADBM's specific jeeva tattva is and I welcome someone to send it to me if they have it.
As for Siddha Pranali, we had some of that in 1971. Some of the disciples of Srila Prabhupada left for some time and came back after they got a siddha deha diksha. One of them was siddha as a peacock, and so we made fun by making "caw caw" sounds when he came back.
That person was later telling me its ok to eat eggs, and gradually he fell down more and more. So it is premature for us to be part of the siddha deha process in my opinion. My main point is, as soon as Srila Prabhupada says something, these above people attack it, so they evidently think they are more advanced than Prabhupada. So they are arrogant, and their teachers are going to be blamed if they are producing these anti-Prabhupada statement followers. In any case, I am openly inviting them to reply, lets see if they can make sense of their own statements, and put together a position paper that is not full of contradictions, as they have done above.
I also do not think these siddha deha babaji programs are going to spread in a big way right now. For starters, most people cannot even travel now, never mind travel all the way to find a babaji somewhere. Its much more practical for them to read Srila Prabhupada's materials, which almost anyone can do anywhere at any time. Its just more practical, because Srila Prabhupada is more practical than these others, he knows how to mass message, they do not. ys pd
LW: We originate in ... brahman. We also originate dormant ... in the body of Maha Vishnu. We also originate ... here. We also originate ... with Krishna ... as nitya leela Krishna das. How! We are originally in so many places ... all at once? Does that mean we are the all pervasive person too, we are everywhere? This is such a joke. These people have ... no idea what they are talking about. No wonder Prabhupada says ... we will be confused ... if we take advice from these people.
ReplyDeleteWe originate here ... same as the Church idea? I think so too. We originate here ... because God is a big mean and nasty old man with a beard who steps on us like a dictator, and starts us here in suffering. This is too rasika for me!
[PADA: Well yup.]
Yup. These people cannot get their story straight because they never thought about the implications of their saying we started as either: dormant (mayavada); we came from Mahavishnu (to here); we came from brahmajyoti (more mayavada); or just flat out -- we originate from here (Vatican idea). At the same time they say, we originally are nitya Krishna das, which means we are not here but in Vaikuntha serving Krishna. So Srila Prabhupada says, mayavada means contradiction, and this is what is happening with these folks, they are in fact tinged with mayavada. ys pd
ReplyDelete