PADA: Wow, lots of comments like, OK you guys have been gurus since 1978, but you never understood what is a guru? Hee hee. This is really a sign they are in cult melt down mode. The tragic thing is thousands of devotees were banned, some were beaten up, hundreds of kids were molested, some folks were killed, all so the GBC could be gurus. But were they ever Krishna's successors and gurus in the first place? Even they don't know. ys pd
angel108b@yahoo.com
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THE JESUS WANNA-BE CLUB EXPANDS
PADA: OK pilgrims, the DIKSHA guru takes part of the karma or samskaras of the disciple. I posted that on their forum -- that we neophytes should not take karma -- and my post was mysteriously removed. Sorry! They are not going to be able to take karma any better than the many other Jesus wanna-be acharyas from the Gaudiya Math and ISKCON.
So here it is again, my comments on the hazards of taking sins:
In 1979 I told Jayapatka and Jayatirtha we neophytes cannot absorb sins, or we will have to suffer. They both laughed at me. Then, they suffered. And so have -- not only most of the original 11 -- but many others they subsequently appointed later on also suffered. And Srila Prabhupada says a Madhyama cannot be a diksha guru because he might once again become a d*mon. He cannot absorb the sins of others. And furthermore he says, anyone who is not an uttama does not have the brahmana tejyas to burn off sins, Srila Prabhupada is very clear on this. No, a kanistha or madhyama is not like fire, he cannot burn off the sins of -- his own -- never mind burn off the sins of others. That is why Nectar of Instruction says, one must only accept an uttama as his guru. There is no sin burning fire in any other category.
*** Narayan Maharaja: Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says the guru takes the disciple's sins, papa.
PD: Correct. Almost all the neophyte GBC people who took sins under Narayan Maharaja's idea and policy suffered by falling down, getting sick, and leaving their bodies. Never mind their followers are not being liberated. Srila Prabhupada told us many, many times, if we allow people to touch our feet we will be acting like diksha gurus, taking sins. That will make us get sick, fall down or both. Of course many of them departed early. He said, only a pure devotee has the brahmana tejyas to burn off sins, and if you neophytes take sins "you will have to suffer" and they are suffering. So yes, this question was answered many times, none of you neophytes should attempt to take other's sins, but they neglected that instruction.
That is ALSO why Srila Prabhupada told the story of the snake and the ants. The false guru told the disciples he could take their sins, but he could not. So the disciples went to Yamaraja and they were very angry, and they wanted to take revenge. So Yamaraja made them ants, and made their guru a snake, and the snake went over the ant hill, and he was e*ten alive by the ants. In other words, it does not matter if this karma is not resolved now, it will be eventually.
And! When we were in India, Srila Prabhupada stopped the whole kirtan when he saw two of his lady disciples having their feet touched by the old ladies at the pandal program. He told them, "I told you -- do not let people touch your feet, you will be taking their karma and you will have to suffer." He told us repeatedly, none of you neophytes should attempt to take others sins, but they neglected that instruction. No idea why the ladies "gurus" would be able to be diksha gurus and take karma -- when the men who do so are suffering many reactions.
Yes, it is very amazing that in 1979, when I reminded the GBC that we neophytes are forbidden to take karma, or even let people touch our feet, because we will take karma, and we will fall down, get sick or both, the GBC guys just laughed at me. Well almost all of the 11 got sick, fell down, or both, and many of them departed early. "You will have to suffer." But many of them went on taking karma with no regards for all these dire warnings. I told Swarupa Damodar about that issue, same thing, he just laughed at me. Shortly after that he was suffering from partial paralysis and other ailments, and the doctors could not figure it out what was the cause. I already told him he would have to suffer.
There is no need for us to become and uttama ourself to help others connect to Krishna, when we can connect any other person to Srila Prabhupada right now. I told people to worship a pure devotee in 1971, and still tell them that right now 2026, there is nothing to add to the orders of the pure devotee.
ys pd
"There will be fire...."
Prophetic words from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to his disciple, Abhay Charanaravinda....... But let's consider the evidence he cited for arriving at this conclusion.....
Oaths of allegiance. "Kiss the ring. Humble yourself before me..." Is this compatible with amanina manadena? Or is it merely the weaponising of a power hierarchy by insecure people who cannot inspire actual loyalty but will accept a notarised terms and conditions document as a symbol of submission and obedience? Has Elvis left the building?
*** Narayan Maharaja: Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada says the guru takes the disciple's sins, papa.
PD: Correct. Almost all the neophyte GBC people who took sins under Narayan Maharaja's idea and policy suffered by falling down, getting sick, and leaving their bodies. Never mind their followers are not being liberated. Srila Prabhupada told us many, many times, if we allow people to touch our feet we will be acting like diksha gurus, taking sins. That will make us get sick, fall down or both. Of course many of them departed early. He said, only a pure devotee has the brahmana tejyas to burn off sins, and if you neophytes take sins "you will have to suffer" and they are suffering. So yes, this question was answered many times, none of you neophytes should attempt to take other's sins, but they neglected that instruction.
That is ALSO why Srila Prabhupada told the story of the snake and the ants. The false guru told the disciples he could take their sins, but he could not. So the disciples went to Yamaraja and they were very angry, and they wanted to take revenge. So Yamaraja made them ants, and made their guru a snake, and the snake went over the ant hill, and he was e*ten alive by the ants. In other words, it does not matter if this karma is not resolved now, it will be eventually.
And! When we were in India, Srila Prabhupada stopped the whole kirtan when he saw two of his lady disciples having their feet touched by the old ladies at the pandal program. He told them, "I told you -- do not let people touch your feet, you will be taking their karma and you will have to suffer." He told us repeatedly, none of you neophytes should attempt to take others sins, but they neglected that instruction. No idea why the ladies "gurus" would be able to be diksha gurus and take karma -- when the men who do so are suffering many reactions.
Yes, it is very amazing that in 1979, when I reminded the GBC that we neophytes are forbidden to take karma, or even let people touch our feet, because we will take karma, and we will fall down, get sick or both, the GBC guys just laughed at me. Well almost all of the 11 got sick, fell down, or both, and many of them departed early. "You will have to suffer." But many of them went on taking karma with no regards for all these dire warnings. I told Swarupa Damodar about that issue, same thing, he just laughed at me. Shortly after that he was suffering from partial paralysis and other ailments, and the doctors could not figure it out what was the cause. I already told him he would have to suffer.
There is no need for us to become and uttama ourself to help others connect to Krishna, when we can connect any other person to Srila Prabhupada right now. I told people to worship a pure devotee in 1971, and still tell them that right now 2026, there is nothing to add to the orders of the pure devotee.
ys pd
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"There will be fire...."
Prophetic words from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta to his disciple, Abhay Charanaravinda....... But let's consider the evidence he cited for arriving at this conclusion.....
"Since we got our marble temple at Bagh Bazaar, they are simply squabbling 'who gets this room, who gets that room'...."
Simply seeing such territorial disputes eclipsing the intended focus of his mission, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta could see where such a mentality would lead.
How much of the current tension around guru-fidelity, franchising parameters, making room for Vaisnavis boils down to the same territorial instincts.... neophytes prematurely elevated to acaryaship defending their turf.... insecure managers asserting their dominance.... hateful misogynists trying to legitimise their scorn by dressing it up in scriptural quotes....?
How to "weather the storm".....? In a storm out on the open seas, one's best protection against being blown off course is the compass - the ability to identify true north, the unchanging principles.... Prabhupada has told us many times what the secret of success is. It's hiding in plain sight.
ekeha kuru nandana.....
Make the spiritual master's order one's life and soul. Any other motives unexamined, unchecked... lead us astray. guru mukha padma vakya cittete kariya aikya, ara na koriho mane asa Let the vultures pick over the carcass, the empty shell that once housed the soul ..... The life of the Krishna consciousness movement is nourished by the 6 loving exchanges. The legislators may well be strangling any remaining life out of "Prabhupada's body".
The Night of the Long Knives is in full sway.... what a legacy to pass on.
Prabhupada's baton pass was always going to be fraught with challenge. His most senior disciples were only 10-11 years into their practice. He had formed the GBC - an innovation his own master had conceived of to foster collaborative leadership for a scaleable institution.
Prabhupada's baton pass was always going to be fraught with challenge. His most senior disciples were only 10-11 years into their practice. He had formed the GBC - an innovation his own master had conceived of to foster collaborative leadership for a scaleable institution.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta knew very well of the risks that institutions posed to the "living spiritual current". Prabhupada witnessed first hand how individual ambition had imploded his spiritual master's hard earned institutional progress.
Prabhupada - living on borrowed time - started early.... supervised his fledgling leadership body, gave clear instructions about the ethos that governing a society of aspiring Vaisnavas should practice, passed on so many warnings about the risks of premature or ill motivated guruhood..... He ran an extraordinary leg of the baton race for someone who arrived in a foreign country with no means and no contacts in poor health and at an advanced age.
Prabhupada - living on borrowed time - started early.... supervised his fledgling leadership body, gave clear instructions about the ethos that governing a society of aspiring Vaisnavas should practice, passed on so many warnings about the risks of premature or ill motivated guruhood..... He ran an extraordinary leg of the baton race for someone who arrived in a foreign country with no means and no contacts in poor health and at an advanced age.
What he accomplished through faithful focus on guru maharaja's instructions in only 11-12 years (and a lifetime in preparation) is truly staggering. The current baton bearers are nearly at the end of their leg. How ready are they to pass the baton and to whom and in what condition? Are they even on the track anymore? Are they willing and able to pass the baton? Or imagining some heroic glory in just running till they drop basking in the crowd's hero worship?
Oaths of allegiance. "Kiss the ring. Humble yourself before me..." Is this compatible with amanina manadena? Or is it merely the weaponising of a power hierarchy by insecure people who cannot inspire actual loyalty but will accept a notarised terms and conditions document as a symbol of submission and obedience? Has Elvis left the building?
I have no doubt that there are many sincere and well intended, genuine sadhus in the movement. There are still "signs of life". But we should not mistake the large temples and crowds for spiritual health necessarily. The best indicator of the spiritual health of the movement is the quality of loving exchange between all of its members.
And out in the devotional communities, in many places, that's exactly what's happening..... What's happening in the higher eschelons - the constant squabbling, the unkindness to children and women, the attempts to secure fealty by legislation...... these signal a worrying vaccuum of loving sentiment. Naked ambition, soulless bureaucracy.... this is not heading in the direction I expected when I felt inspired to join Prabhupada's movement and sought to help it pursue its noble mission.
It was rapidly devolved into a "church" where the mission of reaching out to the masses and engaging them in bhakti has been obscured by in-fighting, power plays and "holy men" enriching themselves, avoiding accountability and wrangling over who gets which samadhi plot for eternal prestige.
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