LETS BURN ISKCON DOWN!
[To cover our complicity in making it into a mess]
BHAGAVAT MAHARAJA
PADA: Yeah sannyasa and householders have different standards. And that is why the GBC kicked out nearly all of the householders, but they kept a few householders who supported their false society as window dressing, and that made a haven for false renunciates and numerous of their perp friends. And Bhagavat knows sannyasa was forbidden -- and yet he went ahead and made himself one anyway. And Bhagavat works hand in glove with the Narayan Maharaja folks, who were the biggest cheer leaders of Tamal's false renunciate regime.
We have to distinguish the misuse of sannyasa over all, starting with answering -- if sannyasa is suspended, why are more than a hundred subsequently made, or a hundred more were made from them taking off with the Gaudiya Matha or NM camps, and they still are being made -- before we reigned in the previous troubles they made -- ok such as their child mistreatment circus? And why are us householders still being shunned, purged, blocked e-mails, if not sued, and / or removed and exiled by various tricks and so on -- even now? And waiting for people like the false renunciates to explain any of this is like waiting for a fairy to glide down from heaven and hand you a check for $1,000,000. It is not likely to happen. ys pd
=========
Mrkanda Fitch
Boiling and flushing the baby with the bath water or throwing all sincere members and leaders of the institution under the bus because of the faults end sins of a few is not at all the solution!
PADA: Yeah we keep hearing this. The worshipers of the GBC's homosexual and pedophile guru lineage, that bans, beats, molests, sues and kills vaishnavas -- are "sincere followers." A news reporter from Britain visited Hitler -- and he wrote that Hitler is -- the nicest person he ever met -- who was bouncing a baby on his knee, and all of his servants were very kind. This is called blind following and sentiment. We are not tossing the sincere under the bus, they are already under the bus, and we are trying to get them out of there!
As with anything purgative, the cancer and autoimmune disease of the spiritual / social body simply must be cleansed and purified so that the internal environment is no longer accepting nor fertile for diseased attitudes and behaviors to persist or grow!
Padmagarbha Das
Mrkanda Fitch the evidence is overwhelming that ISKCON's gurus were neither authorized by Srila Prabhupada to occupy the guru seat, nor are ANY of them qualified! So the most compassionate thing one can do for the body of ISKCON is to expose them all for being the pretenders they are. If we do not do so, this is what Srila Prabhupada states is the fate of all the sincere prabhus who joined this Movement after November 1977.
"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, ALL his devotional activities are useless! A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species." [SP, Madhya Lila 15:108]
Mrkanda Fitch
Padmagarbha Das Okay Prabhu, apparently you could have would have should have done better!! So come on, be the next real Acharya and inaugurate the next real face and phase of Srīla Prabhupāda's ISKCON!!! Come on let's do it together and stop bitching from the ditch or critiquing from the sidelines!
PADA: Right. When Vaishnavas are being banned, beaten, molested, sued and assassinated, we should not complain. OK and that has enabled all these crimes left, right and center. Thousands of children have been molested, and yet the people who complain are "bitching" and moaning [about insignificant issues]. OK, but making children an insignificant bitching and moaning issue is how our society got thousands of them abused, and that also discredited the dissenters, which is how they got assassinated. The only winners are the perps and their enablers.
Padmagarbha Das
Mrkanda Fitch, all my arguments I backed up with quotes by Srila Prabhupada, so you laughing and ridiculing me is actually you laughing and ridiculing Srila Prabhupada!
PADA: It is also ridiculing all the victims.
The following words by His Divine Grace are spoken about those who defy His Instructions/words!
"A siksa guru who instructs against the instructions of a spiritual [master], he is not a siksa guru, he is a Demon!
The first offense is guror avajna, defying the authority of guru. This is the first offense! So one who is offensive, how can he make advance in chanting? He can not make! Then everything is finished in the beginning." [Bg 17:1-3, Honolulu, 07-04-74]
Mrkanda Fitch
Padmagarbha Das sorry Uncle, but simply because you are very stubbornly fixated on your own opinion and misappropriating Srīla Prabhupāda's quotations and authority to bolster your confirmation biased prejudgements does not make your suppositions objectively true, and certainly does not in turn make my assertions false! That is the problem with you first generation devotees, is that you have very little if any courageous vulnerability and radical honesty when challenged to face and consider perspectives and truths which are beyond your limited present purview, especially when so heavily conditioned by self righteous anger and pride!!
PADA: Yep, heard that exact thing over and over, you are addressing banning, beating, molesting, lawsuits and assassinations due to "excess pride." In other words, blame the messenger so the message is silenced.
And it has worked pretty good for these folks, thousands were banned, a number were beaten, some were sued, some had to be sued, many were molested, and some were assassinated -- and we are wrong to address this because -- it has nothing to do with these victims -- but everything to do with the evil dissenters prideful nature. So this is argumentum ad hominem, we cannot address your points, so we assassinate your character. Blame the messenger.
No amount of smashing or bashing others in the name of Srīla Prabhupāda or Krishna or any other pure or perfect Personality or philosophy will effectively or favorably change the heart of any wayward person! Only absolute golden-hearted Grace of touchstone -like humble preaching as exemplified by Haridas Thākur and Lord Nityananda will accomplish that! ha ha hah!
PADA: Yep, heard that thousands of times, our complaining about mass child abuse etc. is not going to change anything. Just let the victims be abused and shut up. OK and that is what happened -- thanks to these cheer leaders shouting us down. You guys shouted us down, that makes you co-conspirators with the regime.
Padmagarbha Das You can laugh and gaffaw and bluster and pontificate as much as you want! But what is your real and systematically effective proposed solution!? Yeah sure, you and so many others have incessant criticism for the faulty leaders of present and since 1977, BUT WHAT IS THE ACTUAL AND ONGOING PRESENT AND COMPLETE SOLUTION DECLARATION AND DEDICATION!?
Until and unless you are the solution then you are simply agitating and perpetuating the problem! And sorry not sorry, but all the old folks are going to be dead very soon and the insane chaotic mess left behind will be up to us second gen and third gen devotees to figure out and straighten out one way or another with or without your supposedly mature help! Hare Krishna
PADA: It is rather amazing how people like Mrkanda seem so ready to pounce when anyone addresses the worship of homosexuals, pedophiles and deviants as messiahs project.
Padmagarbha Das
Mrkanda Fitch there is a very simple solution to ALL of ISKCON's problems, and that is to put Srila Prabhupada back into the center!
All gurus resign and very publicly confess that they lied to everyone, and that they never had any qualification and above all NO authority to consider ANY of those who took shelter in ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada's departure as their own disciples. Then ALL the names of those prabhus who wish to accept Srila Prabhupada as their diksa guru will have their names entered into Srila Prabhupada's disciple book.
Those "gurus" who refuse to resign will be excommunicated/banned from ISKCON and they can open their own Centers somewhere along with those "disciples" who wish to go with them.
After that the DOM [Direction of Management] would be adopted, and new leaders [GBCs, TPs ,etc.] would be chosen by the general devotees along with dedicated members of the Congregation [Life Members, etc.].
And further, ALL "Changed Books" would be burned, and Original Books would be exchanged free of charge for those individuals who no longer wish to keep the 'edited' ones!
Personally I believe that those gurus who resign should consider following the example of Visnujana. This would save them from much suffering in their next lives!
Mrkanda Fitch
Padmagarbha Das Yeah that's a nice fantasy, but ritvic philosophy is not the answer. Only the actual purifying transparent via media program and shiksha adhikar is pertinent. Making this another Jesus movement who is "the only way truth and life..." isn't going to help anything or anyone. Yes, following Srīla Prabhupāda is the active ingredient in our effective progressive devotion, but demonizing and dehumanizing everyone who doesn't want to worship like you is just another form of foolish fanaticism.
PADA: Yep, anyone who does not join the Alachua program of worshiping their illicit sex with men, women and children messiahs club is "making Srila Prabhupada into another Jesus." What does Jesus have to do with a program that worships homosexuals and pedophiles as its messiahs?
Mrkanda Fitch
I'm just sick and tired of so-called problem obsessed critics trying to battle the mode of ignorance using the mode of passion! Only solutions primarily stemming from and situated in pure goodness will have any hope of solving and satisfying anyone or anything! Reactivity is for rodents! The only way to solve bad leadership is replacing it with good leadership! So you yourself become the solution and the leader and then it will no longer matter how the past pained you.
PADA: OK thousands were banned, a number were beaten, some were sued, some had to be sued, thousands were molested -- some were assassinated, and anyone who exposes that process "is in the modes of passion and ignorance."
Padmagarbha Das
Mrkanda Fitch ritvik is not a "philosophy", it is the process of initiating the new disciples ordered by Srila Prabhupada in HIS ISKCON "AFTER" His departure.
[Vrndavan, may 28, 1977]
Satsvarupa: "Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, PARTICULAR AT THAT TIME WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER WITH US. We want to know how first and second initiations would be conducted."
Prabhupada: "Yes; I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up, I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acharyas."
Tamala Krsna: "Is that called ritvik-acharya?"
Prabhupada: "Ritvik yes."
This was followed up with the July 9th written directive in which Srila Prabhupada named eleven "Officiating Acaryas/Ritviks" and also stated that this is to be the process of initiation HENCEFORWARD in ISKCON.
May be an image of 1 person and text that says 'TAMAL KRISHNA GOSWAMI ON WHAT PRABHUPADA SAID You cannot show me anything on tape or in writing where Prabhupada says, appoint these eleven as gurus. It does not exist, because he never appointed any gurus. This is a myth. Pyramid House Confessions, Topanga Canyon, 12-3-80
Govinda Dasi
Mrkanda Fitch Agreed. And this is one very good way to purge it!
PADA: Govinda dasi has been hanging out with the Narayan Maharaja people, who promoted the whole GBC illicit sex deviants as acharyas and rasika. And she says GBC gurus like Gaura Govinda are bona fide [because he was voted in along with sex with taxi drivers?]. And she had me kicked off the ISKCON history forum by calling me a "ritvik snitvik." Now she says ISKCON should be burned down, well yeah, that would cover up her complicity in supporting the cheer leaders of the regime.
Mrkanda Fitch
Padmagarbha Das Yes, but ritvic is not functionally different than simple transparent via media etiquette of offering up your disciple to your Guru, because He is the Ultama Adhikari Savior. So if an acting Guru is on a good Madhyama platform but in good standing and sincerely progressing then what is the harm of them acting as shiksha Guru and linking the Diksha through them to the Parampara!? Our entire lineage is like that! There is no need for something new! Only for genuine transparent sincerity, surrender, and practice.
PADA: A Madhyam cannot absorb sins, and he can also fall down. We are not supposed to worship conditioned souls as acharyas.
Mrkanda Fitch Padmagarbha Das H.G. Tamal Krishna Goswami was basically active as a leader since 1970, and then acting in the position of Guru (of whatever type) following that until his death in 2002. So you and others might say that he was acting as a "false guru" for 25 years following the disappearance of Srīla Prabhupāda. Yet it has been 22 years since then, and we can see that it was primarily immaturity and a bit of prideful foolishness, rather than any real sense of "evil hubris", that influenced him and others to prematurely take up the mantle and artificial role of "pure devotee Acharya"....
But again, why continuously focus on the worst and negatively reinforce that in our own consciousness and in perpetuity rather than understanding it as human error and a profound learning experience through the burning of what doesn't work!? And yes he was still a very good and sincere devotee and disciple and even shiksha Guru for many wonderful devotees who are even still following and serving very nicely!
PADA: We keep hearing this all the time, worshiping an illicit sex with men, women and children guru process is "serving nicely." Serving whom?
And I'm sorry, but my dear father-in-law and others who are so fixated on the supposed poison theory are simply themselves transmitters of poison hearted and black-minded demonic projection obsession!
PADA: OK Srila Prabhupada is complaining about "poison" because he was a transmitter of demonic projection? I have no idea what that even means? The people who are making Prabhupada complain of poison are the black minded, notice how Mrkanda reverses the whole situation to glorify the actual black minded. Did we forget to mention that evidently thousands of Mrkanda's gurukula colleages were raped, beaten and mistreated severely by his "sincere devotees" regime and program?
So no! Such defamation and fatalistic narrative perpetuation is not at all favorable nor of actual service to His Divine Grace Srīla Prabhupāda! And the whole attitude of let's burn the institution down is just some mode of passion self aggrandizement retaliatory wounded ego revenge fantasy of those god brothers and sisters who can't or won't learn from the burn yet welcome the humility of letting bygones be bygones and primarily focus instead upon being the agents of substantial love and leadership that they so desperately would have wanted to see in their elder siblings! Good luck to all of you in your last final years of pure and simple righteous representation and legacy leaving. Jai Srīla Prabhupāda.
PADA: OK but devotees are still being banned, removed, exiled, sued, harassed and etc. And they are now trying to scuttle and remove the Child Protection Officers etc. They have no learned anything.
Padmagarbha Mrkanda Fitch this is how Srila Prabhupada describes those you consider merely <immature and a bit prideful and foolish>. But then, what is the point of me quoting Srila Prabhupada to someone who clearly has ABSOLUTELY NO faith or RESPECT in His words or His teachings. You are the perfect poster child of what are the results of the most heinous crime of this Yuga committed by a bunch of pathetic and most ambitious neophytes, or, as Srila Prabhupada calls them, <Rogues who are the most dangerous elements in human society>. You even show the very same most offensive disrespect and total disdain towards your wife's father, accusing him and those who share his conviction that Srila Prabhupada was poisoned of being <poison hearted and [guilty of] black-minded demonic projection obsession>.
PADA: Well yeah, Mrkanda has "family issues" and no kidding, he is defending the Judas sabha of ISKCON and he thinks our complaining about the mass molesting etc. is "black hearted demoniac projection" and whining about nothing important. Calling his father in law a black hearted demon, then he wonders why he has family problems? And then Mrkanda's family and other families have to suffer, and they are, while he pontificates on "unity." We are going to unite with the people calling us black hearted demons, mainly because -- we do not accept their homosexual and pedophile messiah's program?
Padmagarbha: I personally listened [on tape] to Srila Prabhupada, on three different occasions saying that He was being poisoned. And according to Naveen Krishna dasa -- Srila Prabhupada said it also numerous times in Hindi and Bengali to Kavirajas and other guests! And then there is sufficient forensic evidence as well!
"By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. SUCH VIOLATORS OF RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLES HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE AUTHORITATIVE ACARYAS, THE HOLY TEACHERS IN THE STRICT DISCIPLIC SUCCESSION! To mislead the people in general, they themselves become so-called acaryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the acaryas.
THESE ROGUES ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENTS IN HUMAN SOCIETY. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the State. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in Bhagavat Gita [16.19-20] that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell. Sri Isopanisad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading towards the MOST obnoxious place in the Universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification." [SP purport, Sri Isopanisad, Mantra Twelve]
Malati Devi Dasi: You can burn whatever externals you want but the problem is with the persons wearing / using them. Plus, not everyone in saffron commits these crimes. White dhoti’s do, too.
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Padmagarbha Das: Malati Devi Dasi the following words by Srila Prabhupada applies to those leaders in ISKCON dressed in saffron or white who <did not commit crimes>, but who tolerated them by not speaking up!
"One who is mischievous, he is culprit. But one who tolerates mischievous activity, he is also culprit. If you are mischievous, you are criminal. But...if you tolerate mischievous activities that is also criminal.
[Morning Walk -- Los Angeles, May 3, 1973]
Mrkanda Fitch: Padmagarbha Das Yes, and the main problem is that too many are worried and concerned with being saintly and not righteous!! There is no practical nor ideal way to attain and sustain brahminical culture without real, trained, and empowered Ksatriyas!! Just as there is no useful connection of the head to the body without a neck and shoulders!
PADA: Yeah saying the whistle blowers on mass child abuse are black hearted demons is defending -- mass child abuse, it is not defending dharma.
Padmagarbha Das
Mrkanda Fitch the truth is, EVERY SINGLE ONE of ISKCON's leaders [Gurus, GBCs, Sannyasis, and Temple Presidents] is a criminal. They are all either unauthorized gurus, or enablers of those claiming to be gurus!
"One should not pose as a spiritual master for the benefit of material gain. It is illegal [criminal] to become a spiritual master if one is unable to deliver the disciple!" [SB, 2.6.7]
Mrkanda Fitch
Padmagarbha Das I don't agree. Just because your house has become infested with rodents or insects doesn't mean you are culpable for that problem, only that you are responsible for their extermination!! This movement is only at best 50 years old, and there has hardly been two decades of any sense of cognizant and mature adulthood, if that, since it started! And this entire KaliYuga is an ocean of faults!
So if we want to put ourselves on a pedestal and in the judges seat and pretend that Mahaprabhu's movement is primarily about killing or coercively correcting demons or even demonic mentality, rather than transforming it through copious amounts of merciful Divine Love and Grace, then we are simply prideful fools and are kicking the karmic and Dharmic can down the road while throwing the baby out with the bath water and others under the bus!
PADA: So we should allow children to worship an illicit sex with men, women and children guru parampara to promote dharma? And they are still worshiping predators like Lokanath.
Padmagarbha Das
Mrkanda Fitch
Srila Prabhupāda: Our business is to point out who is not a saint. (Morning Walk — April 10, 1974, Bombay)
So, please, which leader in ISKCON, presently and in the past has ever made an attempt to <exterminate> any of the rodents and insects?
Above I posted a quote by Srila Prabhupada where he equally condemns those who <tolerate mischievous behavior> with those engaged in it.
Actually your opinion, or mine on this matter they do not count, it is Srila Prabhupada who is on the Judges Seat, and only His instructions and teachings should be considered, PERIOD! Those who disagree should either start their own Movement, or join another!
"The fact is that I am the only one in India who is openly criticizing, not only demigod worship and impersonalism, but everything that falls short of complete surrender to Krishna. My Guru Maharaja never compromised in His preaching, nor will I NOR SHOULD ANY OF MY STUDENTS. We are firmly convinced that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all other are His part and parcel servants. This we must declare boldly to the whole world, that they should not foolishly dream of world peace unless they are prepared to surrender fully to Krishna as Supreme Lord.
[ Excerpt from Letter to Giriraja -- Bombay 3 January, 1972]
Mrkanda Fitch
Padmagarbha Das are you on the level of Srīla Prabhupāda, who has the executive decision making maturity and power to transcendently discern, unfailingly see clearly, and thus be purely empowered to point out any and every and only the shadowy and poisonous faults of others, all the while maintaining a genuine merciful mood of fatherly correction towards them? And not fall victim and switch to perpetration in being triggered and then projecting your own unacknowledged shadows and personal faults!?
You can talk and quote all you want until you are proverbially black and blue in the face about supposed idealism of scripture and previous Acharya's teachings, but until and unless we get down in the trenches of vulnerably and courageously facing the real enemies which are the Anarthas hiding behind the mess in our own mirror enough to become the empowered solution that we so desperately want to see in the world and in the movement, then we are simply fanning the flames with our self-righteous problem obsessed discontentment campaigns! You have to own it to shift it, and no amount of pointing blame or projecting shame will change anyone or anything for the better ever!
PADA: But Mrkanada and his GBC ilk have no problem judging that us opponents of pedophile messiahs are black hearted demons?
D Devi Dasi
Padmagarbha Das
yes Srila Prabhupada Said on many occasions that we need to expose any rascals. He wanted all of his disciples to do this when necessary. He did not say one has to be 100% purely on the saintly platform same as him in order to try to expose.
I'm glad you put this comment here.
And why do others think that when sincere disciples try to expose nonsense (which is tearing apart the movement from the inside) It means they don't practice devotional service and read the books and develop love for krishna? I have seen it for years where they ask those who are trying to expose and reveal the truth… They always say why don't you practice Krishna consciousness instead? Why don't you chant and do this and that instead? I say do both!
It is immature to think that you cannot do these two things side-by-side which is what I know you are trying to do. We may do it imperfectly but the sincere disciples attempt to practice devotional service and surrender 100% and also expose the ones who are actually destroying from within . this is wanted. There are a lot of innocent ones who cannot find it in their hearts to follow the authorities in this deviated institutional complex . they can't pinpoint it and they don't really understand what's going on and it is the duty of all disciples who do understand… to try to expose and clean up the mess to clear the path for the innocent ones.
It's a dirty job but it needs to be done. Someone has to do it. Arjuna did not want to kill all of his family members and teachers and friends on the battlefield but he showed by example that one must give up high material principles and moral right and wrong in order to 100% surrender to Krishna. We cannot be concerned at all what others think but we can continue sincerely to develop love and practice devotional service and side-by-side expose those who are dirtying the path of devotion for innocent practitioners and followers. Keep up the good work because Krishna knows your heart and you are doing the best you can to expose the culprits and follow Srila Prabhupada's instructions for self-sufficiency etc. etc.
PADA: Yeah, it is a dirty job. And the people calling us black hearted demons are helping make us targets for assassination, and that enables all the bannning, beating, molesting, suing and -- killing of vaishnavas.
At the same time I really cannot fully blame a lot of these ISKCON youth for being defenders of the homosexual and pedophile messiah's club. A lot of their parents went after me tooth and nail when we exposed their pedo pada society, and their children just took over for them later on. Having said that, promoting or covering for pedo messiah's clubs is still a sinful illusion, and it is still our responsibility to counter it, and we cannot say "everyone else was doing it" to Yamaraja. ys pd
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