The real problem is guruship in our society.
The real problem is -- the gurus -- who are residents of Krishna loka. OK the biggest problem in our society is, the residents of Krishna's planet are messing up our society!
Nor are gurus drinking Vodka while having sex with half dozen disciples a big problem. Nor is all the subsequent criminal banning, beating, molesting, suing and murders -- a real problem either. As per usual, the almighty dollar is the main problem. Is the GBC's orchestrated Auschwitz for kids any kind of problem at all? Nopey! Not even honorable mention. Nothing is ever a big problem for these guys, except, money.
OK a sannyasa is not supposed to be handling a lot of money in the first place. Why is this allowed? And he says when our GBC tried to regulate guru daksine money, we failed. Well duh, the gurus want to control all the money of the society. Money is the apparent problem, and it is causing a boatload of lust, anger and greed in our gurus, but we cannot take this money out of their grubby and greedy hands. They won't allow that.
OK that means your committee has no enforcement program. We all know money is contaminating these gurus, but we cannot remove it from their hands. What is the use of his committee then? And why would a guru need a committee to take money out of his hands?
This is rather amazing. Prahladananda swami says that the eternal servants of Krishna -- and the maid servants of the gopis, i.e. the residents of Krishna loka no less, are having constant problems handling money, women and followers. The residents of Krishna loka are commonly falling into material illusion. If we hand over some dollar bills to a resident of Krishna loka, that resident will want to start having illicit sex with men, women and children. Who knew!
OK that is what they said in 1980, the Mahajanas (and / or the gopis) are prone to illusion. That means Prahladananda swami wants people to think the eternal servants of Krishna are -- often as not, in maya, and are therefore engaging in illicit sex, drinking Vodka, watching porno and etc.
Then he says his committee has no role in selecting gurus, that is done by another committee. OK so all the homosexual, pedophile, and / or illicit sex with men, women and children gurus were not made by us, we are not taking any responsibility. The Devil made these gurus, my hands are clean!
Then he says his committee's main job is to act as the ambulance brigade, and fix and repair these gurus when they tailspin out of the sky and crash. Or as Bhakti Vikas swami says, our gurus are crashing Jumbo Jets. And Prahladananda swami never thinks it might be a good idea to inspect the Jumbo Jet before it takes off, and crashes. It is not his job to do a safety check on the Jumbo Jets, it is just his job to drive an ambulance to the crash sites.
Worse, the persons being caught over and over engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children are -- "2/3's show of hands voting in more gurus." Umm, the people who are failing as gurus left and right, are voting in more gurus?
Worse, the GBC says that the five years old children who got a bad guru (and were beaten or molested) made the wrong choice of guru! Trivrikram swami complained all the GBC rules for gurus amounts to "ritvik de facto." Of course he had a secret female lover on the side himself, so why would he want to be monitored? And notice Prahladananda swami is hanging out with India people, because the Western people have jettisoned his illicit sex with men, women and children "residents of Krishna loka" program a long time ago. Anyway, it is amazing that they still are propping up their idea that conditioned souls who are falling down left and right, are "residents of Krishna Loka." Sorry, they are resisents of Naraka. ys pd angel108b@yahoo.com
PADA: Yep, one of the leaders of the ISKCON Auschwitz for kids program went to Harvard. And that is why Srila Prabhupada says -- having a PHD does not mean you wll not take rebirth as a hog on a hog farm. Hrdayananda was giving me the stink eye on Watseka when we were suing his program for $400,000,000. He promoted and defended that program. ys pd
====
PADA: Yep, one of the leaders of the ISKCON Auschwitz for kids program went to Harvard. And that is why Srila Prabhupada says -- having a PHD does not mean you wll not take rebirth as a hog on a hog farm. Hrdayananda was giving me the stink eye on Watseka when we were suing his program for $400,000,000. He promoted and defended that program. ys pd
Hrdayananda: Reluctant Hero or Ambitious Architect of His Own Vyasasana?
Hridayananda Das Goswami narrates in the interview a story of "imposition" as a guru which, upon analysis, turns out to be unconvincing and filled with contradictions, both from his own account and the historical context of ISKCON.
The Account of "Forced Reluctance"
Hridayananda describes a dramatic picture: after Srila Prabhupada's departure in 1977, he receives a letter informing him that "you are now a guru."
He claims that he "did everything in his power not to be one," confesses to an influential spiritual brother his disinterest —"I don't want to do this"— proposes to Latin American leaders to wait "a year or two, chanting 300 rounds daily" to qualify, and even begs Balavanta das (GBC of the southeast zone) not to assume the role.
However, he gives in: in Houston, he rejects a "great throne," but the temple president —"twice my size"— gently sits him down against his will. Zonal pressures corner him: "The Gaudiya Math would ruin Latin America without me." He sounds like a reluctant martyr, dragged into being a guru by an inexorable fate.
Why It Doesn't Make Sense: Internal Contradictions
This narrative clashes with the reality of his subsequent behavior. If he was so reluctant:
Why does he accept the title "Acharyadeva" —inspired by a purport from Chaitanya Charitamrita that Prabhupada reserved for "bona fide gurus”?
Why did he allow thrones, puja, and full glorification for years, traveling globally as a zonal diksha guru until the reforms of the 80s?
Why did he allow thrones, puja, and full glorification for years, traveling globally as a zonal diksha guru until the reforms of the 80s?
In the podcast itself, he boasts about achievements: supervising 20 countries, translating Bhagavatam Canto 10-12, and being praised by Prabhupada as "transcendental brain."
He was not a humble brahman overwhelmed by the weight of the role; he was an ambitious leader —president in Gainesville and Houston, GBC of Latin America since 1974— perfectly positioned for ascent.
The "reluctance" only emerges post-facto, after zonal scandals, as a convenient justification: "I was imposed, I followed Prabhupada out of caution."
But Prabhupada ordered "do not change anything" and act as ritviks (letter July 9, 1977), not to self-proclaim as absolute parampara with their own disciples.
The Historical Context: No One "Imposed," They Decided
The Historical Context: No One "Imposed," They Decided
There was no "imposition"; it was a collective decision of the GBC in May 1978, where the eleven zonals —including Hridayananda— were officially recognized as absolute gurus, ignoring the ritvik letter as temporary (which merely organized existing practices of presidents initiating in Prabhupada's name during his lifetime).
Critical sources (like debates in ISKCON post-ritvik) document his veiled ambition. His passion for leadership (temples, books) transformed into being a guru, with "GAD" (gain, adoration, distinction) as the driving force, as Max Weber himself explains in the podcast, ironically.
His own official biography (ISKCON GBC) paints him as "appointed by Prabhupada in 1977" —this is an exaggeration, as it was a list of ritviks, not diksha successors—.
The "zonal pressure" he claims did not exist, because it was his own zone (Latin America) that he directed.
Balavanta did not "impose"; he asked, and Hridayananda accepted, installing himself on a throne despite numerous complaints from spiritual brothers who ended up leaving. Either they accepted him as a guru at Prabhupada's level or they had to leave. This repeated in all zones.
The Emotional Fallacy
This story appeals to sympathy —"poor me, forced against my will"— and attempts to dilute his responsibility.
Does a true uttama-successor need "300 rounds" to qualify, or does he embody divya-jnana by grace of the parampara?
Srila Bhaktivinoda in his Jaiva Dharma describes the guru as rasa-nishta, not a victim of politics.
He conveniently confuses open siksha with binding diksha, allowing the innocent public to see him as "vehicle to the spiritual world," while simultaneously minimizing his role.
His narrative, far from innocent, perpetuates the zonalism he criticizes in others.
We invite you to discern: are you a reluctant hero or an ambitious architect of your own vyasasana?
We invite you to discern: are you a reluctant hero or an ambitious architect of your own vyasasana?
MB:
You see, Hrdayananda is always smiling.PD: Hrdayananda was one of the ISKCON leaders giving me stink eye on Watseka when I was having them sued for $400,000.000. Did I forget to mention he was always surrounded by a group of ladies in front of Watseka. And he trained these ladies to also give me the stink eye. The leaders would meet out there with their lawyers -- and avoided asking me anything -- about the mistreatment problem.
In short, they lawyered up and were giving me the Omerta code of silence. Say nothing, admit nothing. And give the whistle blowers the stink eye and silent treatment. They are hiding something, actually hiding a lot of something. But he is one of the behind the scenes operators and manipulators, that is for sure. ys pd
DH: Thank you for your courage. Obviously sweeping problems under the rug has a long term detrimental effect and it’s again spring cleaning and time to shake out the rugs.
PDA: The work that he's done behind the scenes to discredit the victims and protect his friends who abuse children physically and mentally and not to mention who are child sex offenders. He is too worried about his and his friends reputation to really see the major issues that plagues Iskcon for decades now, this good old boys club. He will always be a muppet and a clown!
AD: Why is he still being named as a Maharaja? He is no longer a Maharaja or sannyasi. It degrades things even more. It's cheating. Just use Hridayananda Dasa. bas.
PD: Because when he resigned the GBC did not accept his resignation. Dravida wrote a complaint letter to the GBC around 1980 saying he was always alone in a room with his female secretary -- who had "large tah tahs." And that is why the GBC decided he is the sum total of the demigods and a resident of Vaikuntha. They could not let him go. Brahmananda said to me that "Mustang Sally" was also hanging out at his residence all the time. They cannot afford to get rid of the inner core guys, they know too much. ys pd
SH: So Harry D was sweet on Mustang Sally with big tah tahs! If not for the fact that such behavior is a blemish on Srila Prabhupada's mission, it would be the stuff of raucous comedy, the theater of the absurd.
AD: I've met some of his disciples who have rejected him, understandably, after seeing him in serious breach of the sannyasa ashram and basic guru standards that he once upheld so enthusiastically. Would Hridayananda Das go before a physically present Srila Prabhupada in his Western attire with followers dressed like him? He would get severely rebuked for sure, and he knows it.
But post-samadhi many don't believe Srila Prabhupada is still watching all of us every day. Addressing Hridayananda as a sannyasi, guru, or maharaja just makes a mockery of having any standards and sets a very dangerous sahajiya precedent for future generations.
Nowadays, many apa-sampradayas are emerging from ISKCON and the Krishna West thing, headed by Hridayananda Das, is one of the blatantly obvious ones.
And he wants to give advice on child protection? He is not qualified to speak on any topic wherein sense control is the most important issue.
GP: Thank you penning this well written letter addressing the most important issues facing our community today, and holding people in positions of responsibility and influence to account. many of whom have got away with bad behavior for to long.
RS: Making deals with devils isn’t a recommendation for success.
RSO: This guy has always been dodgy. So many red flags around him and so arrogant. My dealings with him in the early 80s left me with an uneasy feeling. Intelligent no doubt, contribution in terms of service yes but there's something creepy about him that is so evident. I try not to criticise people like him but it's hard to keep my mouth shut. They care only about themselves and those close to them. Victims of the disgusting acts are just not considered.
LB: I will never forgive and forget his irresponsible and pompous words during a class in Mayapur in defence of Bhavananda during the 500th anniversary “If drinking coke and sun tanning on the beach in Australia can help bring Laxmi for Mayapur, then let him drink Coke and sun bake." Such a foolish man.
BB: Defended Bhavananda all along, and that is why he is still a big wheel in Mayapur.
RSO: Jeez he said that? Therein lies their motive; money and power
LB: Yes he said that . Money talks . Anyway he wasn’t removed from GBC and Guru position for drinking Coke and sun baking. Lol. He was removed for a lot more serious stuff of which the leaders tried covering up. The Coke n sun baking Lila was a way the Bhav supporters used against the critics to make it look like they are petty faultfinders. Nice try, to belittle and make a joke of the honest reformers . That’s narcissistic behaviour.
BB: Child molesting going on full tilt under Bhavananda, and Hrdayananda was protecting.
RSO: I agree with you. Making some silly comment about Coke and sunbathing is just a way of obfuscating what was really happening. The thing that upsets me most is all of the 'leaders' at the time who obviously knew yet hid the truth from we second generation devotees. Balarama, Chitta, Pratapana, Kurma, Atmaram, Ramai...they all knew but had us worshipping him like he was a deva. I find that the hardest thing of all, including the GBC. They're all complicit in my opinion.
LB: yes your right.
ASD: complicit fully.
RSO: correct.
DPD: This man gives me the creeps!
AMD: Would it be worthwhile to post a list of who has been, and are now being accused and investigated and their alleged crimes? It would be helpful if accompanied by a photo. This way everyone is informed and we aren't just fault finding.
I view corporal punishment and child molestation two very different crimes. Both crimes but excessive use of force, I believe can be tempered, I find it's usually perpetrated by an overwhelmed individual with no training in caring for children or teaching. The other is 100%intolerable and the person in question should be removed from being anything but a regular devotee. I read these posts and still don't know who is who.
ACD: Perfectly said. So, we know there's no "evidence" at least i do, because i was one of the girls who gave testimony. Nothing with the case was mishandled.
i find it very disturbing that someone could even think about spreading lies about something so important. these lies have basically destroyed any hope of child protection in iskcon.
i find it very disturbing that someone could even think about spreading lies about something so important. these lies have basically destroyed any hope of child protection in iskcon.
it's beyond disgusting what these people are doing to srila prabhupada's movement. And the children of that movement.
DDO: I really appreciate the measured tone you're using consistently now while still being sharp and pointed. It lets your clarity about the situations you're addressing sit unavoidably front and center.
Save krishna children
AD: Two other sorts of action are needed.
1. Educating devotees. In three directions at least, to start with:
(a) the consequences of abuse on spreading Krishna consciousness (i.e., destructive effects). But it will be possible only in conjunction with
(b) "Bringing devotees closer to each other", as Śrīla Prabhupāda wrote in ISKCON goals. And the bigfest obstacle in it is the unspoken and totally overlooked fact, that WE ARE LIVING IN A WORLD OF CLOSED HEARTS. Locked and steel framed. Why? As a defensive stance, to avoid being hurt by others.
(c) Boycotting the wrongdoers. Or circumventing and ignoring them, in the organizational sense.
But the most important is to counteract tbe close-heartedness issue I mentioned above. Because it is the default attitude in prezent Kaliyuga social environment. Everyone is used to it and hence no one really understands how detrimental it is. Even unnatural for Vaisnavas.
Therefore we need education in this particular point. It won't be easy -- simply because it scary at first, when we try to be openhearted, which is a vulnerable position. Luckily, I have found an exact method for quickly learning how to do it safe way.
With spectacular results!
And I must solemnly state: trying to rectify the issues under discussion here, without learning to have openhearted association between devotees will give no lasting good effects. Only quarrels, due to which so many have already become bitter and left the Movement.
Openhearted association is actually such a huge topic, that it is easier to demonstrate in practice than to explain theoretically. Like explaining honey to one who has hardly ever tasted it...
MK: Violence on the battlefield and violence in the classroom are entirely different matters!!
AN Dasi: He is not maharaj!
PC: After all we've seen in the last 50ys i hope we can leave behind the so-called 'reverence' to so-called 'authorities' or 'renunciates' and deal with each other simply as human beings with mutual respect.
So, if Hridayananda has to earn respect i hope he won't keep silence when respectfully asked to substantiate his public statements
MK: Unfortunately, this man was one of the "original 11" "zonal acaryas" who pulled the wool over everyone's eyes in 1978, claiming that Srila Prabhupada had appointed them as full-fledged, bona-fide gurus, magically attaining uttama status overnight! After that hoax fell apart, they've been trying to keep the sham going by various means and changes to their "guru appointment" program, all with much collateral damage along the way.
He is, unfortunately, too invested in maintaining their unbonafide system, their unauthorized status and their criminal takeover of Srila Prabhupada's Society (with all its assets) than in seeing that children are protected or justice is served. He is a very good word-smith, no doubt, but using that capacity to befool the devotees is actually unforgivable.
MA: well said
RD Dasi: These old people still have their position in ISKCON WHAT A DISGRACE!! Leaving Iskcon & ALL of its hypocrisy was the best thing I've ever done.
Here is a copy of all letter given to me by the temple president writen by Bob Cohen ABOUT me!! Fabricating how I was sexualy abused by his employee in BOB COHENS BUSINESS as a little girl.
None of what he wrote is TRUE!! BUT HE DID THIS TO HELP LAKSHMIMONI WITH THE HELP OF THE ABOVE LIAR.
MM: Buona fortuna con le orecchie da mercante
PD: This has always baffled me and some of the victims. The victims are often told that a person who gets a bad guru in ISKCON, and is thus mistreated, is because "they made the wrong choice of guru." Why do Jayadvaita, Hridayananda, Mahatama and others keep saying in essence -- "the five years old children did not study the shastra properly and so they selected the wrong guru.
The victims suffered from their own bad choices." Except, the GBC votes in and selects the gurus, not the five years olds? Apart from that, five years old children are depending on the adults to make the right choices for them. Then their program started saying -- these children have bad karma. But the GBC has no karma for making bad gurus for these children? ys pd
Krishna Conscious are entirely under your control! Morning class, May 6th, 2024 HG Mahatma Das www.mahatmadas.com'
AD: Not that I really believe this thread will be the place for clear thinking about improving CPO policies and procedures, but ...
>>Because from what we have seen, the new system that replaced the previous CPO appears weaker in protecting victims; this outcome cannot be separated from the role you played in bringing it about.<<
Can anyone be specific about what there is in the current system that is weaker in protecting children? I am just asking sincerely. Rather than make this thread about what everyone likes or does not like about ISKCON and Hrdayananda Das Goswami, can we have a constructive discussion of how to improve ISKCON's CPO?
Some questions:
Is the threat of being ostracized from ISKCON really much of a deterrent to sexual predators?
Are there better preventative measures to put in place to actually prevent children *before* they become victims?
Is it important to have standards of due process that protect devotees from false accusations?
Should corrective discipline be tailored to the specific types of offenses involved?
What are everyone's specific thoughts of areas for improvement, or of what things worked better before than now?
What are everyone's specific thoughts of areas for improvement, or of what things worked better before than now?
I know the tendency on Facebook is for people to just indulge in expressing strong feelings and criticizing people and institutions, but if we can have a serious constructive discussion it would be helpful. No ad hominem arguments or accusations of ill motivations please. Just practical analysis and suggestions for how best to protect children and deal with different types of wrongdoers.
SRD: Have you been following the recent developments with regards to how the new system handled the case of Sapna? I get the sense that you haven't. I invite you to watch this podcast, it should help clarify your first question with to the concerns with the new CPO system.
With regards to your question about whether the threat of ostracization would or could be sufficient to deter a hardened child sex predator. My personal view is that it is unlikely that such a would be very effective...
But I think your question omits an important consideration.
ISKCON shouldn't ban known child sex predators simply to try and deter other potential offenders, but primarily to create a safe environment for our children.
I wouldn't want the Hare Krishna movement to be known as a place where known child sex offenders are welcome...
I wouldn't want the Hare Krishna movement to be known as a place where known child sex offenders are welcome...
I think your next question is important. Are there better preventative measures?
Probably, possibly, I think this is where ISKCON as a society ought to come together and hire professionals to help us identify what would be the most effective prevention measures we can implement.
Probably, possibly, I think this is where ISKCON as a society ought to come together and hire professionals to help us identify what would be the most effective prevention measures we can implement.
I agree that it is essential to have standards of due process that protect devotees from false allegations.
The destructive circus that HDG set up does NOT achieve this end. Again, for what it is worth, my personal view is that corrective measures ought to be individually tailored to the degree and type of offense.
At the same time, we have to acknowledge that the CPO is very limited on the scope of punishments it can impose. For the most part, all the CPO has done, even with some of the most egregious offenders, has been a suspension (temporary or permanent) of privileges.
In the context of the gravity of the criminal offense that is child abuse, this is a ridiculously mild sanction. The old system was more victim centered. The new system doesn't seem to care about the victims at all, as if they don't even exist.
It is quite shocking to see how the victim was completely erased in the illegal review of Sapna's case.
AD: "ISKCON shouldn't ban known child sex predators simply to try and deter other potential offenders, but primarily to create a safe environment for our children. I wouldn't want the Hare Krishna movement to be known as a place where known child sex offenders are welcome..."
Yes, I very much agree. I think people who are actually pedophiles need to be immediately barred from ISKCON temples, even before the investigation is complete.
I will watch the podcast. I tend to be a little skeptical until I hear from both sides, because this issue is fraught with so much emotion. I know nothing about Sapna's case or even who Sapna is.
I also have not made an extensive study of Laxmimoni's case, but I have heard from reliable sources that although she was a mean teacher she was not a sexual predator. Of course, my sources could be wrong, but they said there was kind of a lynch mob mentality that influenced the case, where second generation students pressured their fellows to get the maximum sentence possible against her. What some people have said is, her scratching due to a physical condition was misconstrued as a sexual act, and that no one came forward with any claim that she approached them or groomed them for sexual conduct when they were a child (or even any adult).
But again, these cases have to be investigated in a responsible manner, and I was not involved in any way with the investigation.
Even being a mean teacher should require some suspension and requirement of training and genuine indication of understanding her mistakes, but a lifetime ban from temples is way too severe if that is all she really did.
>>The old system was more victim centered. The new system doesn't seem to care about the victims at all, as if they don't even exist.<<
Again, can you be more specific? It is understandable that victims want retributive justice and perhaps some compensation from the perpetrator. There ought to be a kind of sentencing guideline and a mature consideration of the nature of the wrong alleged and the circumstances of the case. Not every case is a case of sexual misconduct or even severe misconduct.
I do believe that in ISKCON's internal handling of these cases, the spiritual lives of the alleged perpetrators of milder misconduct should be considered, as well as whether they have reformed and the interests of ISKCON in their continued contribution to ISKCON's mission.
Remember, anyone who has a case that can be prosecuted in criminal or civil secular courts is encouraged to do so. The CPO is dealing primarily with cases that would be dismissed if brought in a secular court.
SRD: You say that you tend to be a little skeptical until you've heard both sides, in reference to Sapna's case, but then in the next paragraph you go on to share the very biased, one sided, version of Laxmimoni's advocates, that you describe as 'very reliable'. Where is your healthy skepticism here???
In her case, it doesn't appear that you have taken the trouble to listen to the other side...
In her case, it doesn't appear that you have taken the trouble to listen to the other side...
Laxmimoni did not receive a lifetime ban from anything, except perhaps working with children.
She received a temporary suspension from the most lavish privileges available to senior ISKCON devotees. That's it!
Victim centered doesn't mean that the CPO does what the victims want.
It means that the CPO consults, informs and takes into account how their decisions will affect the victims.
It means that the CPO consults, informs and takes into account how their decisions will affect the victims.
Whereas the new system doesn't appear to be very concerned with the welfare or interests of the victims
If you watch the podcast about Sapna, you will have a better understanding of what I'm talking about.
I agree that the spiritual life of some minor offenders ought to be taken into account.
I don't agree that this should be a central focus for the CPO. And I certainly do not think that the interests of the perpetrators or the political interests of ISKCON should have priority over the interests of their victims.
Even when these perpetrators offer substantial contributions to the ISKCON.
=======
OIL CRISIS IS AN EVERYTHING CRISIS
PADA: Yep, we are super dependent on oil, and it is hard to see that until -- the supply is messed up. Someone said that when the USA says -- closing Hormuz is the hard part, now the rest of the world can open it up -- and do the easy part. That is 100% opposite of reality. Closing it is the easy part, opening it will be hard. And that is why we have not done it.
Similar to when USA said NATO should escort ships. OK a ship going 3MPH is slower than a turtle and is an easy target for all sorts of projectiles, which is why, we took our ships out of there. We are giving advice, but not following it ourself. ys pd
No comments:
Post a Comment
Note: Only a member of this blog may post a comment.