Letter to Jason

Dear Jason, Basically my realization, for what its worth, is that Krishna is always in control of our minds at all times, because He controls everything.

There are thus two energies of Krishna which will control (and direct) our minds, according to our degree of surrender to the Lord, namely the material or the spiritual.

So we are either (a) controlled by, or under the shackles of, the material energy, or (b) we are controlled and guided by the spiritual energy. When our desire is to be fully independent of Krishna, our minds are fully controlled by the material energy of God, and when we desire to fully surrender to the Lord, then our minds are fully under the control of the spiritual energy.

The problem for most of us spiritual neophytes is that we are in the middle position (c) that we are sometimes surrendered to our material desire for independence, and we are only sometimes trying to surrender to Krishna, this is called mixed devotional service by Srila Rupa Goswmami. So for us, sometimes we are feeling transcendental upliftment, and sometimes we are back to hankering and lamenting on the mundane platform.

Unfortunately, there is no easy fix for this prevarication, which is why -- even when a great mahatma like Srila Saraswati appears, only a very few of his followers become pure. So its not that easy to rectify our trend and tendency to be independent, since after all, we have been on this independent platform for millions of years.

What needs to be done is therefore, to keep trying to surrender to the transcendental side. And in proportion to our surrendering to that side, that will put our minds in control of the transcendental side in proportion. At the same time, what seems to be helping me personally, is that I am trying to see that even my material side is also the energy of Krishna, so I am trying to recycle my mundane tendency by realizing, this is also Krishna.

Other than that, we need to try to develop love for Krishna by the authorized various process of thinking, remembering, hearing and etc. There really is no other truly functional process, since this process is made by the Lord Himself. At the same time, we can also try to dove tail our material side and try to use that for Krishna, this will help get us fixated towards the spirtual side indirectly, because this process helps towards the ultimate goal of full surrender to the spiritual side.

The process that will give us Krishna is given by Srila Prabhupada and there is no need to modify that. At the same time Krishna is very merciful and He will personally help us, but only if our desire is sincere, because He can transform even mundane things to spiritualized things, and place us more in the shelter of the spiritual energy. As we surrender to the spiritual, this energy then gradually takes over our existence, but this generally happens IN FULL PURITY over many lifetimes, its not cheap. I hope this helps. ys pd

Message to Frank Hallenstein

Frank thinks that since the GBC's gurus are doing parikrama, bowing down, offering prayers and obesiances, and worshiping a known child molester and criminal in "a samadhi" the holy dham, that makes this "the Hare Krishna movement"? Even cannibals do not worship dead carcasses of homosexual child molesters? The good news is that Frank will someday be elevated enough to take birth as a cannibal and he will no longer be in his molester pooja succession. And since Madhu Pandit is more elevated than the cannibals, and ten million births ahead of Frank, thus Frank does not like him, you have to be less than a cannibal before Frank supports your views. Why is Franks program worshiping known child molesters in the holy dham, when even the cannibals do not worship child molesters, ever, ever, ever? When will Frank come up to the higher standards of cannibal life? ys pd

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People who worship dead carcasses of child molesters in the holy dham are not part of human society, in fact they are rejected by even cannibal society. And molester pooja is not even fit for animal society, since animals do not worship child molester's carcasses either. Thus the Sri Isopanisad says these people like Frank's program are "the most dangerous elements in human society who are destined for the most obnoxious regions," .... read: it will take them millions and maybe billions of years just to come up to the higher levels of animal kingdom. They are not connected to God or anything else of value, they are not connected even to animal standards, they are the lowest beings in the entire creation, and that is why they go to the lowest regions. This is all confirmed by shastra: Worship of bogus people as acharyas takes one to hell, plain and simple. And worship of child molesters as acharyas takes one to the *** lowest of the lowest *** of these hells, and for a long duration. Its an insult to God to say His successor are criminals and molesters. No one is allowed to insult God like they are doing every day for the past 35 years, without going down the drain of the kingdom of Yamaraja, and that is where these people are headed, says shastra. ys pd

ISKCON gurus promoting mayavada (update)

If the Doctor is Not Healthy, He Will Pick-up the Disease, 

BY: ATMAVIDYA DASA 

Kesava Krsna Prabhu wrote:

"There is excitement in reading of Lord Chaitanya's conversion of Sri Prakasananda Sarasvati and his many followers, His tactful defeat of Keshava Kashmiri, and His extremely patient transformation of the heart of Sri Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya..."

Dear Kesava Krsna Prabhu, Hare Krsna. The key word here is "conversion." Lord Caitanya actually converted these people into devotees. If our mayavadi hugging sannyasis were actually converting these mayavadis into devotees there would be jubilation, not concern. There would be seminars on "how to hug mayavadis till they become devotees." But that is not the case. Even after many years (decades in some cases) of association, the mayavadi friends of some of ISKCON's leading sannyasis have not shown even the slightest indication that they have become Vaisnavas.

Instead, as a result of prolonged association with these new age and traditional mayavadis, what appear to be the pernicious symptoms of mayavad, sahajiyism, mundane philanthropy and humanistic influence in these leading ISKCON sannyasis is what is concerning those who are entrusted with maintaining Srila Prabhupada's mood and mission.

When Sivanandasena asked Lord Caitanya what was the symptom and duty of a Vaisnava, Lord Gaurasundaradeva replied "asat-saṅga-tyāga-ei vaiṣṇava-ācāra" -- the first business is to give up the association of non-vaisnavas. If the doctor is not strong and healthy then he will pick up the disease of the patient. Unless you have the potency of Lord Caitanya don't imitate Him, rather follow His instructions. sarva vaisnava dasa Atmavidya dasa To understand Srila Prabhupada's mood and mission in preaching please read "On Speaking Strongly in Srila Prabhupada's Service" by Bhakti Vikas swami.

Rocana defeats Rocana update

PADA: On the one hand Rocana is always promoting:

*** (A) compromised people like Mayesvara dasa (Ojai California) who supports: ISKCON gurus like Hrdayananda, and simultaneously he supports -- the Gaudiya Matha's false gurus, Sridhara Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja, the World Vaishnava association (WVA),  Madhava Maharaja's successor Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha, and of course some of the GBC gurus and their connections to sahajiyas like Fakir Mohan etc.

SRILA PRABHUPADA NEVER RECOGNIZED THESE "GURU" LINES AS BONA FIDE!

*** (B) At the same time Rocana promotes our idea, the Prabhupadanuga's idea, that the parampara is only 32 people. This makes Srila Prabhupada the current acharya. And so Rocana says we Prabhupadanugas are right: Srila Prabhupada is the CURRENT samparadaya acharya.

At the same time! Notice that Rocana is complaining that the ISKCON Pune site promotes "the Gaudiya Matha" and its missions, ok some of "the missions" we just mentioned above, and they also do not promote the "32 guru's" line.

And all of the assembled GBC and Gaudiya Matha people refer to their guru line as the "guru vrnda," "guru varga" and so on. And are we surprised to find that some of the GBC's gurus now refer to their post 1977 guru line as "the guru vrnda" (using Gaudiya Matha terminology). So in other words, one day Rocana promotes Mayesvara and the Gaudiya Matha and their guru vrnda idea, never mind many members of their guru vrnda are always be found out to be deviants. The next day Rocana is with the ritviks, he says there are only 32 gurus listed?

The next day we find Rocana is criticizing the guru vrnda idea of the Gaudiya Matha? How can we be both for and against these bogus people? So this is the trouble with these folks, they will support this bogus guru vrnda program one day, then attack it the next day, or even -- support and oppose on the same day? 

This means they are promoting "the line of 32" or something like Jesus's pooja one minute, and then advertising for Satan's pooja the next moment. This is why we Prabhupadanugas are making so much progress, we only promote the worship of the acharya  at all times, and we never promote these bogus guru vrnda parties. This is good, it shows that people who are offending Prabhupada are totally losing their marbles, they have no brains left to even understand that they are making no sense anymore. As Srila Prabhupada says, these rascals lose their intelligence, buddhi nasa, and then they no longer are able to distinguish good from bad, so they fall into the material pool, or in this case, they are dropped to the bottom of the material ocean. These people will have a hard time explaining how they support both the worship of Jesus and Satan at the same time, to the Yamaduttas? ys pd

GBC is the Disciplic Succession?
BY: SUN STAFF (OK, Rocana dasa)

On the ISKCON Pune website's 'About Radhanath Swami' page, we read the following:

"Traveling and preaching widely, he is one of the Governing Body Commissioners, the disciplic succession that dates back more than 5000 years, he has a simple message - humility rather than pride, compassion as opposed to envy are the qualities we should be striving for." (ISKCON Pune Website)

As it's worded, this not only suggests that the GBC body is itself 'the disciplic succession', but that its legacy goes back 5,000 years. As noted in the recent paper, "Guru-parampara: The List of 32", a somewhat similar conception, that the GBC body is to be seen as 33rd on the list of Sampradaya Acaryas, has also been promoted by Jaya Tirtha Charan das (JPS), who lists Srila Prabhupada as being on an equal level as the Gaudiya Matha, with the GBC succeeding him in the guru-parampara.




Guru-parampara: The List of 32 - 'Recognition of Srila Prabhupada
as the Current Sampradaya Acarya'

As explained in "Guru-parampara: The List of 32", we believe this to be an entirely flawed conception, as is the Pune website description.

What to do when the messiah is in maya (update)

http://www.oneiskcon.com/2012/10/guru-in-the-morning/


Giri Nayaka: I thought guru should be the one who knows what to do. Here we have others telling to guru what he must do. What kind of guru is that? GBC employee? Insitutional guru, who is not really guru, but acts as guru anyway?

Akuti DD: yes, its kinda annoying and boring reading again and again about how one only can be guru or as good as Krsna Himself....while maya is so sweetly singing the songs of.....( what ever fits anyone...).....and another one bites the dust....and everyone or no one is lost.....sigh, kali yuga is on its peak, but we will survive...we never give up!

Giri Nayaka: This article reads as "Guru 101". Should be called "Guru for Dummies".

Lenny: Puranjana pr has commented it accurately: "What to do when the messiah is in maya (update)?" So what they want to tell us between the lines is that their gurus are officiating priests (ritviks). But that disciples still have to worship them as real gurus because a ritvik is something special? They should finally explain all this. Saksad hari, directly Hari is not to be found among their gurus and they obviously know it.

Giri Nayaka: What a disgrace such gurus are. They should be the ones who have taste for devotional activities, not that there is "must, must...". As if guru is something that can be learnt, a set of rules - you just need to do all specified, and you are guru! A bonafide guru, saviour of the fallen! "Yes, all checkmarks are in place, you see? Real bonafide guru, with all checkmarks in place!"

Rosalba Rkmini: Who of you want to became guru? Please come on!..... Now you have to make some tests. After you can became guru! (multilevel material organization)

Russian book distributors join Prabhupadanugas!

One of the biggest book distributors, Mataji ***** has LEFT ISKCON (she had her own team of mataji book distributors, the biggest in Russia). She has left iskcon after she got to know about the guru issue through our Prabhupadanuga group. [PADA NOTE:  JAYA!]

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Service is the Secret Behind Ukraine’s Bhakti Sangam Festival
http://news.iskcon.com/node/4674

PADA NOTE: Our affiliated PRABHUPADANUGA group of devotees were ALSO there at this fest. If you forget the number of devotee attended in all other departments, our men did much much better then the ISKCON folks. Our devotees distributed 5,000 books, other literatures, tapes of Srila Prabhupada, and so on. Our presence was so so much felt that the guru camp had to make announcement 50 times a day for 12 days to ask their devotees to stay away from our group, but many many were coming to our group anyway. Our devotee Alexandra prabhu was lecturing nonstop for 12 days more then 300 devotee attended his lectures daily. Daily harinama was also being done. 

Disciple training class by guru ministry?

http://news.iskcon.com/node/4668

Public expose vs Public preaching

Lenny Sislac: There is private istagosthi and public eye.

[PD: Lenny you are officially an idiot. The devotees who tried to negotiate privately like Tarun and Chatur Bahu were killed, and private neogitators like Kulashekhara were beaten and hospitalized. You have to go public to expose a dangerous cult, or you will die. You have no idea what you are talking about.]

LS: When Prabhupada spoke before an audience he would never ever speak like that, my guru was poisoned to death by my criminal godbrothers. Was Prabhupada then a number one apologist? So these are unqualified statements. Prabhupada knew, when telling on US TV that his godbrothers have killed his guru and are fighting since 40 years at court over the properties, this would not,

a) have the culprits arrested, and
b) attract the American people to chant Hare Krishna.

[PD: I am exposing a cult? I am not starting a brand new Krishna religion in a foreign land? I am also not HDG? You cannot compare the two of us on any level. My job is different from his job, he was not exposing a bogus religion, he was started a bona fide religion? How are these two ideas comparable? And if you are doing what Prabhupada does, why are you harassing us every single day, day in and day out, follow your own idea, go and preach and do that? You are not doing anything?]

LS: That much common sense is not there, PADA wants de facto Prabhupadanugas to go to the market place with flyers and tell all people of your city, ISKCON leaders poisoned Prabhupada to death.

[PD: I never said that? I said preaching to the public must go on, Lenny has no idea what I said even? We have a ritvik temple here, we do not preach about the poison issue here to the public? We preach general KC, Lenny has to make up statements I never made? I said I needed to expose, a few of us, not everyone else? Everyone else should preach, I said that and now you are saying I never said that?]

LS: And when devotees say, well, our state law says you cannot denunciate people in public without court decision, PADA: you are a GBC puppet.

[PD: Well this is what the GBC says, take us to court, and that is what you say, you are their puppet, we do not need a court, all of us agree these people are criminals, except you.]

LS: So these are foolish methods Prabhupada never approved. In that sense, you are actually attacking Prabhupada. Nowhere Prabhupada would address an audience of guests with, listen, I have to tell you something, my guru's most intimate disciples administered poison and killed our spiritual master to get his properties.

[PD: So your idea is to allow the molesters and poisoners to go scott free? Right, we get it already, you are their top apologist.]

LS: Instead, Prabhupada would always present the teachings of our acarya's and thats it. This is there in the Vedabase thousands of times. Everybody understands this why not you? What is your problem?

[PD: OK so preach from the Vedabase to the public and quit harassing us as you have done for years now, do what you say should be done. You are not, you are a hypocrite. And following your idea, I'd be dead already, I had to go to the police and media, you wanted me to die, you are with them. Go negotiate in private, and you will be buried in the hills of West Virgninia, that was Lenny's plan for me all along. Neine danke! ys pd]

Is Gopal Krishna swami -- Mafia-pada?

http://www.iskcontruth.com/2012/10/the-kali-chela-gbc-guru-acarya-mafiapada.html

Blaming the messenger?

Right, well from my experience, I came out in 1978 and said, deviants are not gurus. All kinds of people vociferously argued with me then and they still do. I really don't care what they argue, I am not going to accept that deviants are acharyas. And that is why the police like Joe Sanchez, the FBI, the USA Federal Marshalls department, and state Sheriffs like Tom Bordenkircher, the media like Kathy Kuspy, Jane Wallace and others, and eventually even karmi lawyers and courts, became my best pals and they conjointly helped me the most, because almost everyone of the devotees (ok except for a few people like Sulochana) said, oh this is all sillyness. Well maybe it is for some, but for those of us who have had our friends offed, beaten and so forth, we take these matters somewhat more serious. In other words, we were proven right in the actual karmi court system, and were proven right a million times over in the court of public opinion, indeed worldwide hundreds of millions of people read about these bogus gurus and they all said you know what, these protestor like Puranjana are right, these gurus are clowns, so whether the mass of devotees will catch up to speed all they way or not, who knows? Who cares? Not my problem. I delivered the message, if people accept good, if they do not, also good. The messenger just delivers the message. Of course, the number of devotees accepting is more and more growing every day, so its encouraging, but that does not change the essential fact all along since 1978, we were and are right, deviants are not acharyas.  ys pd       

More Vaishnava scholars accept ritvik

More Vaishnava Acharyas Accept Ritvik

By: Madhu Pandit Dasa

Guru-Sadhu-Shastra corroborates Srila Prabhupada’s appointment of Rittvik Representatives.

Dear Maharajas/prabhus, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Please find below the results of some more research with other sampradayas. Prof Tatachar was also approached by Sriman Basu Gosh Prabhu and Vidvan Gauranga in connection with the vidvat goshti. For some reason, he could not attend the same. However he gladly gave a letter and answered questions in an interview.

Your servant, Madhu Pandit Dasa.

 Part 1. A letter given by Prof Tatachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Mandya district, Karnataka.

Prof. M A Lakshimtatachar,

Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research

 

Respected Madhupandit ji,

 

Humble Pranams. Before writing this letter let me introduce myself as a Sayamacharya belonging to the family of Anantanpillai otherwise known as Anandacharya, who was one among the simhasanadipathis appointed by Ramanuja himself to initiate disciples into Srivaishnavism. Further I have also continued the same tradition as I am initiating many into Srivaishnavism in the name of my revered acharya Sri U. Ve. Alwar Tirumala Iyengar Swami who was the 34th successor in the Acharyapurusha parampara. I have also enclosed herewith my bio data, which gives some information about my educational and philosophical background.

 

Now, I learn that there is some discussions are going in ISKCON regarding succession. The bone of contention is whether Ritviks appointed by His Holiness Srila Prabhupada could be considered only his representatives or should they be considered as acharyas themselves as they are initiating the disciples into the Hare Krishna movement.

 

I have very carefully gone through the letter of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada, which was issued on July 9th 1977. According to me this letter has five parts.

 

 1.   In the changed circumstances permission to certain disciples to act as ritviks – as his representatives

 

 2.   Specific names of these who can act as ritviks – representatives of Srila Prabhupada

 

 3.   Change of procedure

 

 4.  Stress on the point that after initiation from the ritviks appointed by His Holiness Srila Prabhupada they are considered to be disciples of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada only

 

 5.   The action to be taken to include the names of the initiated in the disciples book of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada only

 

The letter categorically makes it clear that the eleven Ritviks can never claim “acharyaship” as they are the only representatives of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada. They are like the instruments in the hands of acharya for the sake of initiation. The letter stresses again and again that the initiated are the disciples of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada only. Refer to these statements:

 

  1.  “Ritvik – Representative of the Acharya for the purpose of performing initiations”

 

  2.  Ritviks – “These representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada”

 

  3.  “The newly initiated devotees are the disciples of HDG Srila Prabhupada”

 

  4.  “The name of the newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him/her to Srila Prabhupada to be included     in HIS DIVINE Grace’s ‘Initiated disciples book’”

 

There are several such instances in Sri Vaishnava Parampara (tradition). Take the example of Sri Ramanujacharya himself, who was the foremost amongst the Srivaishnavacharyas. He was initiated into the Sri Vaishnava texts and secrets by five great acharyas who are the disciples of Acharya Yamuna. That is why is called Panchacharya> Pradarshita. Though he was a disciple of these five Acharyas, just like the Ritviks appointed by His Holiness Srila Prabhupada ji, these ritviks never claimed that they were the Acharyas of Ramanujacharya. On the other hand, it seems Yamunacharya had seen Ramanuja only once in Kanchipuram when he was studying with Yadava Prakasha, and he also showered blessings on Ramanujacharya from a distance. Very interestingly, Ramanujacharya mentions Yamunacharya and offers obeisances to him in his benedictory verses found in the beginning of the Vedartha sangraha. This shows that Acharya Ramanuja is considered to be a sishya of Yamunacharya only.

 

Besides the very concept of Ritvik has a special significance here. In the olden days there would be a yajamana who could engage Ritvik, Adhvaryus etc., for the performance of sacrifice. These people after performing the sacrifice would get some dakshina. But the net result of the sacrifice would go to the yajaman himself, as he was mainly responsible for the performance. The ritviks were entitled only to initiate disciples into the Hare Krishna Movement. But the disciples thus initiated by these representatives are always considered to be the disciples of Srila Prabhupada only. Since he is the yajamana who has engaged these ritviks for the performance of initiation.

 

Again I have to stress that the letter makes it amply clear that the disciples thus initiated by the representatives of Srila Prabhupada are only the disciples of Srila Prabhupada only, not of the representatives.

 

I also want to confirm that this system can continue perpetually even in the physical absence of His Holiness Srila Prabhupadaji as it has continued in Ramanujas tradition as any person initiated by any acharya has dasyanama like Lakshmittathacharya Ramanuja Dasa though Ramanuja passed away long ago.

 

Hope, Madhupandit Dasaji, I have made my point clear.

 

With warm personal regards,

 

Yours sincerely,

Lakshmi Tatachar (Signed)

 

Part 2. Excerpts of an interview with Prof Tatachar

 

Can an Acharya who is not physically present give diksha?

 

ISKCON devotee: Our point is that although Srila Prabhupada is not physically present, that does not in any way stop the validity of his continuing to be diksha guru.

 

Prof Tatachar: Definitely. That is my view.

 

ISKCON devotee: Can the absence of a physical body limit the functioning of the acharya, in terms of Srila Prabhupada being able to impart knowledge and take karma of the disciples? Can Srila Prabhupada do this now?

 

Prof Tatachar: Just because somebody has a physical body, can he take your karma? Is he competent to do it? The presence or the absence of the physical body is not the criteria to take away the karma of a particular person. On the other hand, it depends on the devotion of the disciple and the grace of the acharya. Say for instance, Srila Prabhupada’s guru was not there when Srila Prabhupada was present. Do you mean to say that they are not capable of taking the karma of their disciple?

 

The interesting thing is [quotes a verse in Sanskrit from Yatindra vimsati composed by Sri Manavala Mamuni of Sri Vaishnava Sampradaya, who appeared nearly 200 years after Sri Ramanuja].

 

ISKCON devotee: So what is the import of this statement?

 

Prof Tatachar: That means though the guru is not physically present, he can take away all the karmas of the disciple. That is the potency of the acharya. In that way, it is not important whether the acharya is alive with a physical body or not. That is not important.

 

ISKCON devotee: One of their objections is that it stops the parampara.

 

Prof Tatachar: How does it stop the parampara? These ritviks will further appoint ritviks.

 

ISKCON devotee: There is a provision for that. Prabhupada says more can be added when necessary.

 

Prof Tatachar: More can be added, and these ritviks will initiate all of them into the Hare Krishna movement, and Srila Prabhupada will be their guru. What harm is there? Because the very word ritvik has a special significance here. What do you mean by ritvik? A person who performs this particular duty. Suppose a king performs a sacrifice he is considered a yajaman. Even now wealthy people organize for us, Sudarshana homa. Probably in your place also. So that person is called a yajamana. When we came to your place Madhu Pandit Das was the yajamana. He didn’t perform the sacrifice. He engaged all these people – Venkatesh and I came and many other people came and we performed the homa. After performing the homa we were given dakshina. So our relationship ends there itself. Because we had received the dakshina for the service we had rendered. But the end result goes to whom? To the yajamana only. Similarly, these ritviks get some dakshina from the persons whom they initiate. Once that is done their work is over. But the result that such and such a person is a disciple of such and such a guru goes to Srila Prabhupada. That’s why the word ritvik is used here. Otherwise he would have used a different word. And he would have stated that these are my sishyas, these sishyas are here afterwards considered to be the gurus to succeed me. “He is my successor,” he didn’t say that.

Does the ritvik system violate any Vedic principles of guru parampara?

 

ISKCON devotee: You have compared the arrangement in the Sri Sampradaya with that of the ritvik arrangement that Srila Prabhupada has directed us to follow. (He also supervised the running of this system from July to November, 1977). In ritvik system, there is an important difference. Here Srila Prabhupada is not giving any guruship to the ritviks.

 

Prof Tatachar: Yes, that is right, that is what we see from the letter also.

 

ISKCON devotee: In the event of the ritviks being representatives only and not being gurus, is there a violation of any shastric principle or is it violating any spiritual injunction?

 

Prof Tatachar: No, it is not violating. On the other hand, it supports what I have stated. In the case of Sri Ramanuja, I have stated that he appointed 74 simhasana-adhipatis and made them gurus. In spite of that we owe our allegiance to Sri Ramanuja only.

 

ISKCON devotee: You are saying that in spite of being some sort of guru, you are the disciple of Sri Ramanuja only?

 

Prof Tatachar: Yes, definitely. That is why we say that we are Sri Ramanuja dasan only. I have to say “adiyen madhura kavi lakshmi tatacharya ramanuja dasan” when I prostrate before anyone. Sri Ramanuja dasa is the common thing found in all the Sri Vaishnavas, though we have been initiated by one of the simhasana-adhipatis appointed by Sri Ramanuja himself who were considered to be gurus. In spite of this we are expected to state that we are disciples of Sri Ramanuja only.

 

ISKCON devotee: In our case it is clear that Srila Prabhupada did not give any guruship.

 

Prof Tatachar: So it is all the more clear and imperative because Srila Prabhupada mentions very clearly in the letter that these are ritviks. That is why I have given the meaning of the ritviks – this word comes from the Rig Veda. The ritvik is a sacrificer who is appointed by the yajamana. Suppose you are the yajamana, you can appoint me as the ritvik and this ritvik performs the role of a priest on behalf of the yajamana. This may happen when the yajamana does not know the Vedic rituals or even if he knows and if he is not in a position to perform this role, then he may appoint a ritvik. So he will perform the sacrifice and give dakshina to the ritviks. Who gets the result of the sacrifice? It obviously goes to the person who has engaged these ritviks and sent money for the sacrifice, the yajamana.

 

The word ritvik is very significant. That is why Srila Prabhupada was so clever to say that they are only ritviks and not acharyas. So the result goes to Srila Prabhupada only.

Again, will the parampara stop?

 

ISKCON devotee: In the Bhagavad Gita, Srila Prabhupada gives the guru parampara – Brahma, Narada, Vyasauand so on till Srila Prabhupada. In the ritvik system, who comes after Srila Prabhupada?

 

Prof Tatachar: Srila Prabhupada himself. Only the ritvik system continues, and Srila Prabhupada is the guru.

 

ISKCON devotee: When that happens, is the parampara not stopping?

 

Sri Tatachar: No. What can be done? Srila Prabhupada has not appointed an acharya. The parampara continues through a chain of ritviks.

Is authorization essential to become an acharya?

 

ISKCON devotee: One final question is that for somebody has to become an acharya, how important is it for him to receive an authorization to take that post from the previous acharya? In this case, there is an authorization to continue to as a ritvik and ritvik alone, there is not authorization to function as guru. How important is it to receive an authorization?

 

Prof Tatachar: It is very much necessary to receive an authorization. Without an authorization you cannot do. Generally what happens in the Srivaishnava parampara, they were always worried about the succession (Tamil sloka). Who will be the successor to take care of the propagation of this system? When the acharya was about to pass away, he would nominate a person to take care of the path and hold the mantle thereafter. That is how it has been done. That is why even in the Srivaishnava parampara, while giving sannyasa, he cannot take sannyasa on his own. The acharya will give the sannyasa and say that here afterwards he will be the mathadipathi.

 

ISKCON devotee: That means authorization is a must.

 

Prof Tatachar: IT IS A MUST.

 

ISKCON devotee: To become a guru or a mathadipathi or a peethadipathi…

 

Prof Tatachar: Yes, yes, yes. Otherwise I am very sure that Srila Prabhupada would have used another word altogether instead of ritviks. “These are my successors” – no problem. He never said “successors”. Again and again he stresses these are my representatives only, they are only expected to initiate them, ultimately all of them are “my disciples only, not the disciples of others”.

Posted in:

Update on the poison issue

Subject: IMPORTANT WHISPERS/LOW SOUND CONVERSATIONS NOV 10th 1977 (Total 9) Complete 

 

 

 

(1)Please click here for the highlighted sound background conversations between Bhavananda and Tamal Krishna ( If on Windows Media Player, MP3 CD timer is on 34:06 – 34:42)  ) while the Kaviraj (Indian doctor)  is conversing with Srila Prabhupada in Hindi on Nov 10th 1977 in Vrndavana, (77/11/10/RCVRNMP3

 

(Please pay special attention to the background English conversations going on between Bhavananda  and Tamal, despite the loud Hindi speech from the Kaviraj in the very beginning).

 

Transcript:

 

Kaviraj : (Speaks loudly in Hindi)

 

Bhavananda: ( in low whisper mode) (Background -loud Hindi speech from the Kaviraj ),

 

 “Prabhupada is trying to trap us”

 

Kaviraj : (Speaks loudly in Hindi)

 

Tamal Krishna: (in louder clearer mode, practically on the level of a low sound conversation), (Background -loud Hindi speech from the Kaviraj ),  

 

 “ Put the poison , Put the Poison in different containers, that’s all, its alright, - - - -  no other way”

 

Tamal Krishna:  (in louder clearer mode, practically on level of a low sound conversation)

 

 “Ultimately what Prabhupada decides, we will do”

 

Bhavananda:  Indistinct

 

Tamal Krishna:( in louder clearer mode, practically on level of a low sound conversation)

 

“ Yeah, but it goes on, as Prabhupada goes on, his disciples also go on”.

 

 

 

 

(2A) Please open the attachment in this e mail that says “SP Whatever Energy is conserved in Parikrama- - - “”

 

Transcript: FIRST PART:

 

Kaviraj : (Speaks loudly in Hindi)

 

Tamal Krishna : (Speaking in Background while the Indian Kaviraj (doctor) is speaking loudly )  “   - - - - - - - -  - - -    Poison For”

 

Gopal Krishna:  “ Whatever energy is conserved in Parikrama, the plan has to - - - - - -  - - - - - “

 

 

(2B) Please continue to listen  

Transcript: SECOND PART  

 

(While Hansadutta is singing, there are many devotees whispering to each other for quite some time. All these whispers need to be enhanced professionally for us to understand  as they seem quite sinister.

 

Hansadutta: (Leads Kirtan)

 

Devotees: (Many Devotees whispering to each other while Hansadutaa is singing)  (THESE ALL NEED TO BE ENHANCHED)

 

 

 

(3) Please open the attachment in this e mail that says “ SP Tamal Whispering “Prabhupada is gonna wanna get out “

Transcript:

 

Tamal Krishna : (Whispering to Bhavananda) “Prabhupada is gonna wanna get out, going through palanquin gates “

 

 

 

(4) Please open the attachment in this e mail that says “ SP Tamal Instructing Bhavananda to Carry “(Whispering while devotees are speaking amongst themselves)”

Transcript:

 

Devotee :  “We will bring it along “

 

Gopal Krishna :  “  - - - - -     in the van “

 

Devotees: (Speaking amongst themselves)

 

Tamal Krishna : (Whispering while devotees are speaking loudly amongst themselves)  “You should carry the  - - - - -

 

Bhavananda : (Whispering) Yeah !

 

Tamal Krishna : (Whispering) “ Carry it with you - - - - “

 

Devotees: (Speaking amongst themselves)

 

 

(5) Please open the attachment in this e mail that says “ SP Devotee whispering “Its your man” (While Lokanath Maharaj is speaking to Srila Prabhupada)

 

Transcript:

 

Lokanath Maharaj (speaking to Srila Prabhupada) “The cart could be turned into (a) house”

 

Gopal Krishna : (Giggling)

 

Lokanath Maharaj: “ Have Bamboo sticks”

 

Devotee: (Whispering very low ) “ Its your call ,

 

Another Devotee (Whispering louder): Its your Man, Gopal”

 

Gopal Krishna : (Giggling Again)

 

Devotee: ((Whispering Again) “Its your Man -  - -  (Indistinct)”

 

 

(6) Please open the attachment in this e mail that says “ SP HE IS AS SLY (SLAY) AS THEY COME  (Whispers spoken while Hansadutta is requesting for Kirtan, twice)

Transcript:

 

Hansadutta: “We have some Kirtan “

 

 

Tamal Krishna (Whispering)   “GBCS in charge  -- - - - - - - - (THIS NEEDS TO BE ENHANCHED)

 

 

Hansadutta: “We have some Kirtan, Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Devotee: (Whispering):  (THIS NEEDS TO BE ENHANCHED)

 

 

Tamal Krishna (Again Whispering)   “   - - - - - -  GBCS - - - - - - - - (THIS AGAIN NEEDS TO BE ENHANCHED) – - - - HE IS AS SLY (SLAY) AS THEY COME”

 

 

 

 

(7) Please open the attachment in this e mail that says “ SP Tamal whispering Gopal Laughing ” , (Whispers spoken while Srila Prabhupada is speaking to Lokanatha Maharaj)

Transcript:

 

Srila Prabhupada(speaking to Lokananth Maharaj) “That you are experienced - - - -  I am not “

 

Gopal Krishna : (Giggling)

 

Tamal Krishna (Whispering to Gopal Krishna)  “ - - - - - - - - -- - experienced - - - - - - - - - - - - “(THIS NEEDS TO BE ENHANCHED)

 

Lokanath Maharaj: (speaking to Srila Prabhupada) “When you sent me to experience this Bullock cart programme so that you could in future - - - -  “

 

Gopal Krishna : (Laughing even more louder)

 

Srila Prabhupada: “For me it is experience”

 

Tamal Krishna : (Continues to whisper, but whispers are covered by sound of moving of the microphone) (THIS NEEDS TO BE ENHANCHED)

 

Bhakti Svarupa Damodara: “We also ask the Kaviraj to come along?

 

Srila Prabhupada: “Invite Him”

 

Gopal Krishna : (Laughing while speaking) “He can come - - - - - van’

 

 

(8) Please open the attachment that says SP Swelling Poison is going down

 

Transcript:

Tamal Krishna (Whisper) : “The swelling/poison is going down , The swelling/poison is going down

 

 

(9) For hearing the whisper by Tamal Krishna to Bhavananda of “Put some Poison in the Milk”, one can click here for the audio sound (If on Windows Media Player, MP3 CD timer is on 4:09- 4:13)

 

Transcript:

 

Tamal Krishna :  “Put some Poison in the Milk “

 

 

To hear the whole CD of the Nov 10 1977 Conversations from beginning to end, please click here  or   http://www.mediafire.com/?ppvh77orok1r7vh

 

And for Individual highlighted louder version of the whole CD , please go to  http://www.culturedbooks.com/audio/audio-address.html

 

 

George Harrison comment on post 1977 ISKCON

GEORGE HARRISON: “I am always a bit dubious about organisations and since the Swami died it does seem to be chaotic, with all kinds of guys thinking they’re the gurus. To me, it’s not important to be a guru, it’s more important just to be, to learn humility." (George Harrison interview with BP Fallon, The Sunday Tribune, October 18th, 1987) 

Jayananda video / map of Vrndavana

http://krishnatube.com/video/33/Rathayatra-1967-with-Jayananda

Problems with bogus GBC gurus

http://prabhupadavision.com/2012/09/opportunistic-nuevo-iskcon/

Letter from HH Jayapataka swami

HH Jayapataka Swami’s letter to Bangalore devotees
Dear Devotees of Hare Krsna Movement , 
We managed to get this letter (written on or about August 25, 2012) that His Holiness Jayapataka Swami had written to you all. It was given to Madhu Pandit Dasa. We hear that none of you were shown this letter. So here it is:
_______________________________ 

My dear Madhu Pandit Das and group members, 
Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. 
I know that if we discuss philosophy then you may have lots of things to say and I may also have many different things to say. In this letter, I am just trying to go beyond these philosophical disagreements to seek a way in which we could work to integrate you back to ISKCON. So please just consider this proposal calmly although your first knee jerk reaction maybe that my presentation in this letter is not what you want. Please deliberate and consider what would be more pleasing to Srila Prabhupada. 

There is definitely agreement between both you and me and the GBC that Srila Prabhupada holds the most prominent/pre-eminent position in every ISKCON devotee’s life since he is our Founder-Acarya. Let us use this common and most essential understanding to forge unity. I remember that you were very concerned that you wanted a direct relationship with Srila Prabhupada and if somehow that can be obtained by maximizing your shelter of Srila Prabhupada as your primary spiritual authority and minimizing the role of the diksha guru, that could be something that could be worked with immediately. A physically living person that doesn’t really have a role more than the fact that he is imparting the initiation or mantra as diksa guru or mantra guru but you really take shelter in Srila Prabhupada as your primary spiritual authority and as ISKCON’s Founder-Acarya. Somehow in this way if you adjust then there is no reason that you cannot be a part of ISKCON. Of course as I said, philosophically you may have others things to say but practically you can achieve so much and I am sure that your influence in ISKCON would be a positive one if you accept these guidelines. 


If you want establish Srila Prabhupada’s position as the ultimate spiritual authority in ISKCON and take maximum shelter of him, that is very similar to the system of Bhagavat parampara presented by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. But if you say that Srila Prabhupada is your diksa guru although he is not physically present then this a big obstacle in finding a solution. You are asking the Bureau to stand against a world wide movement and against the GBC which is a difficult thing. You are saying that you will give the properties to the Bureau but asking what is the safe guard? I am looking a step further that Srila Prabhupada wanted Unity in Diversity. Srila Prabhupada told the GBC that this Unity in Diversity should be the first agenda in their list. There is however a limit. The ISKCON GBC obviously has to stay with the tradition of the Guru Parampara, Sastra and Sadhu. At this point, the possibility of Srila Prabhupada giving initiations after his departure may not be something that the GBC is considering but as I said this is not at all an obstacle for you to have a direct relationship with Srila Prabhupada as your primary spiritual authority, as ISKCON’s Founder-Acarya. You can call yourselves Prabhupadanugas or whatever you want. 

You can really show how to present yourselves, how to surrender to Prabhupada and so on. You could worship Prabhupada, and follow Srila Prabhupada, and that would be very inspiring to have somebody completely sold out to Srila Prabhupada. Maybe some people want a diksa guru in a regular sense and to say that is wrong is not approved by Prabhupada either. To say that someone wants to take maximum shelter of Srila Prabhupada as their primary spiritual authority, as ISKCON’s Founder-Acarya or as the pre-eminent Siksha Guru and they want to minimize the role of the Diksa guru as monitor guru or the like, that is also not wrong. In this way by accommodating both these scenarios simultaneously we can achieve Unity in Diversity. Of course if you want to discuss your points further, the GBC may be willing to send a person or a team of persons to discuss with you,maybe even non-guru members of GBC, but as you know,they probably won’t be convinced and you wont be convinced either. 


The bureau has already offered in the mediation that whatever your beliefs are, no one will be penalized or persecuted. So, in view of all this the proposal that I have presented in this letter would allow you to be a part of ISKCON in a full sense and not just namesake. This would be akin to the situation within the catholic church where there are certain orders, such as the Benedictine, Franciscans, Cistercian (Trappist), Opus de, etc., similarly you could be one type of Prabhupadanugas in ISKCON who take more shelter of Srila Prabhupada than anyone else. So let this be your vaisistya or specialty. 


There is a GBC resolution that says that one can be a member of ISKCON without accepting a Diksha Guru. But this GBC resolution is not comprehensive or all encompassing because it does not address questions such as how to go on the altar, etc., So the present proposal covers all these different aspects. 


I don’t really know what more to say. This is just an attempt to bring peace between us. 


I have proposed something similar to the bureau and they have accepted it. So there will be no problem from the bureau side. Since the GBC has accepted Srila Prabhupada as founder acharya, pre-eminent Siksha Guru and primary spiritual authority and is only against portraying Srila Prabhupada as Diksha Guru of disciples initiated after his departure there should not be any problem from them either.  Through this adjustment you can achieve all your spiritual objectives.