Rupanuga's muddled position on guru

Rupanuga prabhu: Soon after his disappearance in 1936, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur's disciples became embroiled in endless controversies, disputes and schisms. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada was to say in a lecture on October 22, 1972 in Vrindavan:

"We have got practical experience how a great institution was lost, by whimsical ways. Without carrying out the orders of the spiritual master, they manufactured something and the whole thing was lost."

PD: Fine, except Rupanuga prabhu never really tells us: What deviation was manufactured? What was the main topic of "dispute" within the Gaudiya Matha? Srila Prabhupada identifies ONE MAIN pillar issue as the source of all these disputes: i.e. that the Gaudiya Matha started making false diksha gurus, and all these other problems have been rooted in this one problem. Rupanuga only mentions that there is some unspecified, generic "problem," but he never clearly identifies the Gaudiya Matha's bogus guru idea as the main problem that was injected into ISKCON, nor does he clearly mention any detailed solution?

Rupanuga keeps telling us that the Gaudiya Matha folks "did not follow the orders" of their guru Srila Saraswati. What order is he talking about? Rupanuga never says? What order was violated? Why not tell us the "order" was: To make a Governing Body, having the mission's members acting as preachers, agents or at best priests / ritviks, and not as bogus gurus? That was the order they violated, but Rupanuga never explains this clearly, or at all. The "order" was, to make an administrative body whose purpose would be: To continue that worship of the diksha guru / acharya. And that is the order that was violated.

Rupanuga has apparently never even understood what the root problem was all this time because he never identifies and explains it, nor does he give the proper solution?

Our post-1977 ISKCON GBC had the same identical orders from HDG: You can ONLY be my preachers, agents or ritviks, do not attempt to be gurus. That is the specific order the deviants violated, but Rupanuga only says they violated some generic order, he never explains, what order? And this is what other GBC apologists like Bhakti Caru say, the Gaudiya Matha violated the order. What order? We need to be specific, otherwise we will never solve the problem if we do not identify what it is.

Srila Prabhupada identifies "false gurus" as the central issue that has caused the fracturing of the Gaudiya Matha mission. Srila Prabhupada says this over and over, that the Gaudiya Matha made false gurus, and these bogus gurus rejected the idea of having a cohesive Governing Body which would continue the worship of the factual guru and acharya.

And after 1977, our bogus ISKCON leaders followed that same deviated Gaudiya Matha idea and they did the same thing, they made false gurus. Why doesn't Rupanuga ever explain this clearly? And since Rupanuga has been deputed by Srila Prabhupada to be the gate keeper to stop these false guru out croppings in ISKCON, and he had been specifically deputed by Srila Prabhupada to stop consultations with deviants like Sridhara Maharaja, why did he not do that? And why does he never explain why he did not do that?

This begs the question, why didn't Rupanuga report all these Gaudiya Matha deviations being duplicated in ISKCON way back in 1978, when the GBC made false "appointed" gurus? And then the bogus GBC declared Sridhara Maharaja is ISKCON's "Higher Authority" in their 1978 annual report position paper? Why didn't Rupanuga become alarmed, how can there be a "Higher Authority" than Srila Prabhupada? And how did Sridhara Maharaja become the alleged Higher Authority than Srila Prabhupada? And why didn't Rupanuga say, Srila Prabhupada wanted me to ring the alarm bells when Sridhara Maharaja was consulted, because he has been identified as a deviant, and he should not be consulted at all?

And in 1980 when the GBC combined with Sridhara Maharaja to make their bogus position paper "The Mahajanas Have difficulties," why didn't Rupanuga publicly challenge this offensive document and say, Sridhara Maharaja's idea that the mahajanas and the acharyas fall down is an extreme offense? Instead Rupanuga went along with all these deviations without any protest, rather he was acting as their cheer leader and he was trying to get a seat in their bogus assembly?

PADA's editor has been reading Rupanuga's writings for years, and years, and years now, and he never, ever, discusses the main topic mentioned by Srila Prabhupada which caused the "disputes" in the Gaudiya Matha -- and ISKCON, which is, that the members of the mission were only ordered to be agents or at best ritviks and NOT GURUS.

And instead they made false diksha gurus and they declared the acharya Srila Prabhupada as only a siksha guru. And they said that they are the "appointed" diksha gurus. Incidently, Rupanuga himself still agrees with these bogus GBC and Gaudiya Matha deviants that Srila Prabhupada is only a shiksha guru? Rupanuga mentions that the Gaudiya Matha folks objected to the title of Srila Prabhupada, and yet Rupanuga is apparently also joining them by objecting to HDG's title as the diksha guru? Why is Rupanuga joining this pack of deviants who all say HDG is only a shiksha guru? And why has he never explained why he joined with them on all these deviations?

Srila Prabhupada: Your so-called disciple, the jackal named Ananta Vasudeva, disobeyed your final instructions to keep the mission united, and thereby created a scandalous fiasco. The result of this philosophical deviation is evident to this day as imitative sahajiyas are being worshiped as gurus in your temples. (verse 2)

The final instruction is that we in ISKCON should ONLY act as preachers, agents, at best priests, and we should not act as gurus. Rupanuga never explains any of this, to this day? Why? Nor does he say that Srila Prabhupada is the current diksha guru of ISKCON, rather Rupanuga sides with the bogus GBC gurus and Gaudiya Matha folks that HDG is only a shiksha guru, which is what the deviants also say? And he never explains any of this in the past 35 years? So what order was violated, the order that the acharya will continue to be the diksha guru, and Rupanuga is one of the people who is violating that order by saying the acharyas are only shiskah gurus, which means he is a parrot of the deviants. ys pd

Rocana/ Palaka/ Rupanuga/ contradictions

PADA: Palaka has been twisting things here all along. 

(A) Palaka says we need to read Rocana and his DOR, and yet Rocana is the number one promoter of the Gaudiya Matha folks and their bogus living guru ideology. Why is Palaka promoting the Gaudiya Matha's promoters? And Rocana is the promoter of people who insulted Prabhupada like the Madhava maharaja program. Why is Palaka promoting the insulters of Prabhupada? And Palaka says we need to hear from these offensive people? 

Rocana is just like Palaka, he also has no temples, no devotees, no programs, so we need to follow them and have a big fat nothing program? Rocana also advertises for the people who are spending $15m suing us, so Palaka says he is not for this lawsuit program, but he is for promoting the people who are defending these lawsuits folks? 

(B) Palaka says Srila Prabhupada is only the shiksha guru, when Srila Prabhupada said he is the diksha guru and the GBC are the siksa gurus. Palaka is defying the direct statements of Srila Prabhupada. Where does Srila Prabhupada say he is only going to be the shiksha guru of ISKCON? He never did, this is another lie from Palaka. 

(C) Palaka says Srila Prabhupada's vani can give full pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins (diksha), but then he says, no, this is bogus -- HDG's divyam jnanam is not sufficient to give diksha? He is minimizing the acharyas. Rupanuga says we should all pray to get a diksha guru, find but as soon as our people get one, Palaka says they are bogus Christians. And we could go on here, but the point is, Palaka does not even agree with himself, he contradicts himself here, over and over, never mind he also countermands Srila Prabhupada. ys pd

Sunnyvale program Sat Oct 27, 2012

Rocana is the mortician of ISKCON?

PADA: No twisting and shouting here. We are making many new disciples of Srila Prabhupada. You and your pal Rocana say this is bogus because you have concocted a slew of bogus gate keepers, hoops, traps, ecclessiastical processes etc. so that people cannot become his disciples. Catholic Church ex Cathedra rules? And you are attacking our new disciples as bogus Christians because you are envious that they have found a bona fide guru under our Prabhupadanuga banner.

You want to block their progress, and have them adopt your process, i.e. no new disciples, no new temples, no new nothing. Dead on the vine. And you are quoting Rocana, the post mortem pada of ISKCON. Post mortem pada is your hero, because he has no new nothing, he is the mortician of ISKCON. Rocana's program also has no new disciples, no programs, no temples, no harinamas, no nothing at all.

Yes, we had to wait for 20 minutes to get darshan at our temple, whereas there is no waiting at yours and Rocana's temples because you have none and you never will, your only function is to harass those of us who are making new disciples and new temples. You are never going to accomplish what we are doing because you are simply trying to act as gate keepers to stop our people from being disciples of HDG. You are like the Vatican's College of Cardinal gate keepers against people worshiping the pure devotee.

Thus all of Srila Prabhupada's programs are dying out under your plan, whether varnasrama farms, book distribution, temples, everything has decreased under your plan because as soon as someone reads the book and accepts Prabhupada as their guru, you jump in their faces and tell them they are bogus Christians and you chase them out of ISKCON. So now you have emptied the boat, and that is why there has been a Haitian Disco and now a Bingo Hall at Schemerhorn temple, your program is running out of money, men, everything. Its post mortem. ys pd

Palaka / Rupanuga / pt. 3 "rudderless"

Thanks, I think I got Palaka's idea already: (A) We must distribute Srila Prabhupada's books because then, (B) People will naturally be attracted to Srila Prabhupada as their guru, and they will accept him as their guru, (C) Except according to Palaka dasa, anyone who reads the books and becomes inspired to accept Srila Prabhupada as their guru is "like a Christian who is part of the Catholic Church." 

And those of us promoting Srila Prabhupada as the guru are also bogus Catholic Church types. Fine except (D) Rupanuga's GBC pals are voting in gurus, like the Vatican votes for the Pope? 

I think people like Palaka are the number one reason people are not distributing and reading the books, because after they read, then Palaka types tell them to forget all about having Srila Prabhupada as their guru, its a waste of time to worship him because -- if they accept him as their guru they are bogus Catholic Church. No wonder you folks have no temples, no devotees, no programs, no nada, because you are countermanding and arguing with yourself! You cannot distribute the books of a guru, and then tell the people who read the books they cannot accept the guru who wrote the books -- as their guru? You are arguing with your own shadow, no wonder nobody hears about your program, its rudderless. ys pd

Palaka / Rupanuga pt.2 10/23/12

PALAKA DASA: Pd you are such a bold face lier . Shame on you . We both know Rupanugas involvement towards Kirtanananda and Sulochana and we have hashed this out before with direct statements given by Rupanuga himself . And its you who resorts to your same old tired false accusations like Rupanuga is a fallen guru when be never once became a guru . And when you have been repeatedly asked personally by Rupanuga to remove these false statements posted on your camps web site you twist the truth to serve your stance . It's so obvious u simple cant stand that Rupanuga far exceeds you on every level thus you hound him. Give it a rest !

PADA: Rupanuga was a member of the 1986 reformers and he was a liason between Sulochana and the GBC. I was there when Sulochana called Rupanuga, remember? Say what you like, I was listening in on the phone booth when Sulochana called many times. Sulochana also tape recorded many of these calls and he let me listen later. You also promoted Rocana right here and now, and he is the leader of saying Srila Prabhupada is the post mortem / post samadhi / posthumous person, and you refer others to him AS OF NOW. We have you on record doing that. There is nothing either tired or worn out here or not, its called relating the factual history, its what Rupanuga did when Sulochana called him for help, he worked with the reformers. And its what you are doing now by promoting Rocana. I am not grinding axes here, I am stating what occured historically. You also forgot to answer if the books are the source of divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha. I have not harped on Rupanuga being a guru, but he was at one time in their guru voting system http://pratyatosa.com/GBCRES/GBCRES1986.htm And on March 29th when Rupanuga was getting set up to be a guru, we were being threatened with death and I was being chased with baseball bats. Rupanuga had no authority to back these people who are hunting us like dogs. Even if I am a dog, no one has the authority to hunt and kill me, its not authorized. ys pd
@1986: GBC RESOLUTIONS 1986pratyatosa.com
‎1. Removing a GBC . 2. Removing a guru. 3. Amending laws of ISKCON and st
anding orders of the GBC. 4. Adding new GBC members. All other proposals will require a simple majority of voting members present.

PALAKA DASA: Pd again you are totally off with regards to Rupanuga . For the record although the reformers did indeed sanction Rupanuga to be allowed to become an ISKCON guru , he never took them up on their offer . Why ? Because he studies Srila Prabhupadas book and actually feels he is not qualified . Unlike so many of the others who jumped at the chance only to fail miserably. Srila Prabhupada has stated with regards to Rupanuga " at least he's honest ".

As GBC who's duty it was to investigate Sulochana complaints , He actually sided with Sulochana and stood up to Kirtanananda which only infuriated him all the more . As a matter of fact , he even warned Sulochana that Kirtanananda and his followers were fantastical and a very possible threat . Sulochana responded by bragging that he always was armed . Remember during that dark Period in iskcons history the the gurus held majority on the GBC . In the end Rupanuga resigned his GBC post because they were encourageable . You paint Rupanuga to be one of the good old boys , but he is just the opposite. 

PADA: OK lets just stick to answer the main question first of all which you keep avoiding for some reason: Rupanuga says Srila Prabhupada stopped giving diksha, but we are making thousands of new people his direct disciples (including at our temple here in Sunnyvale) based on their getting pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha, from his books. Why is Rupanuga saying the books are not giving this diksha anymore, when we are making new people every day based on these books? And how can we say these people are not getting pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins, when many of our people follow the principles better than most of the GBC gurus follow? Does this not prove our people are getting the divyam jnanam, which destroys sins? Or are you saying this is all illusion, they are chanting for nothing at all? What is your point here, I do not get it? And then you tell us you are with post mortem pada Rochana? Why are you with post mortem pada? ys pd

PALAKA DASA: The books are indeed giving direct association http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-10/editorials5893.htm but its not diksha it's siksa. Pretty plain and simple . So just because you have followers in and of itself doesn't really count . http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-09/editorials4187.htm

The Sampradaya Sun - Independent Vaisnava News - Editorial Stories - March 2010www.harekrsna.com

PADA: So when we say the books give pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins, you say that is not diksha? That means you never understood what is diksha? Again I repeat, our people are getting pure divyam jnan and their sins are reducing, that is called diksha. Are you saying this is not happening? Well it is! Siksha can come from any mixed devotee, even the pot washer, and so the CC says there can be many shiksha gurus, but the diksha guru is one. And pure divyam jnanam / diksha can only come from a pure devotee. Who is your pure devotee who is giving diksha now? And why are you attacking the books by saying they are not capable of giving people pure jnanam, when our people are making so much advancement on this principle? If the books are not giving these people pure divyam jnanam which destroys sins, why are they making so much nice advancement, more than the GBC gurus even? Are you saying that their spiritual advancement is illusion? This is atheism. Which might be related to your supporting that the acharyas are post mortem. Our Sunnyvale devotees came up here for the Rathayatra, they are nice bright faced devotees, you say they are not getting the pure divyam jnanam and having their sins destroyed, but they are, we see it practically. If they are not getting diksha from the books, where are they getting it from? And how come you never answer this point for the past 35 years? 

Incidently Rocana says there is always a living diksha guru when he met me in LA, so I said lets go meet your living diksha guru, and he became angry ever since. Face it. He has no current living diksha guru, he is bluffing, and I am surprised you are citing such a bluffer. Where is his current living diksha guru? He has none, and you are citing this bluffer?

PALAKA DASA: Pd your logic is wrapped . Yes I took Diksa when Srila Prabhupada actually accepted me as his initiated disciple . He actually accepted me . It was a mutual agreement . I didnt force myself upon him and expect he was obliged to accept me . I asked and he accepted . But who is asking Srila Prabhupada if he actually wants to accept these new disciples ? Have you actually consulted with him to see that he agrees to your plan or since that how the Christians do it you've simply adopted their methods ?

Gaura Prabhu - yes but still someone has to actually approach Srila Prabhupada and ask him if he agrees to not only accept the aspiring disciple but also ALL HIS KARMA as well. Is it fair to force all those sins upon Srila Prabhupada without his permission . Just because that's how the Christians claim its done cannot automatically mean that's how Srila Prabhupada mission works . If it was then in all the years he labored to write his law books for the next ten thousand years he certainly would have spelled that out so there'd be no confusion .

PADA: Dear Palaka, OK so now we are making progress, you are saying that the people who read Srila Prabhupada's books, accept him as their guru, and are crying tears of joy chanting Hare Krishna, and who are doing fabulous and opulent deity worship in Bangalore, Sunnyvale, Long Island, Taiwan, Fiji, Singapore, Ukraine, Russia, New Zealand and so on, and they are doing harinama and book printing, they are ignorant foolish slobs who are forcing themselves upon Srila Prabhupada and Krishna? They are fools who are in illusion, Srila Prabhupada is not accepting them, they are not connected? Except, they follow better than the GBC folks do? So they are doing all this for show, there is no substance?

So that means you are attacking Srila Prabhupada's new devotees as fools for -- accepting Srila Prabhupada as their guru? No wonder you people have no temples, no programs, no devotees, no nothing, you are saying that preaching about Srila Prabhupada is post mortem nothingness.

And we needed to be here when he was here, or else we cannot connect with him, and after he is apparently gone its all post mortem. So you have a dead link in the Chaitanya tree which produces nothingness, whereas we just had a huge festival in Ukraine with hundreds of devotees and all kinds of harinama, books, kirtananas and so on, and you have nothing at all to show for your posthumous ideas?

To say the guru is posthumous does not make him posthumous, it makes you posthumous. And you are criticizing that the books have no value because Srila Prabhuapda is not present to accept people, except you forgot his whole principle, he is here -- he lives forever in his books. And that is what he said right here in Berkeley, I will live forever in my books, so the readers can accept him and he can accept them.

So he is here to accept these people, and that is why you have nothing to show for your 35 years of posthumous pooja idea, its dead on arrival. Worse, Rupanuga supported that the foolish GBC are going to accept karma, when they cannot accept their own karma, and they are failing all the time? Anyway you finally admit de facto, you have no diksha guru, as we asked Rocana, you have no diksha source, so you are rudderless. ys pd

Rupanuga / Palaka / Rocana /etc. 10/22/12

WORM: Puranjana, why don't you read this nice article by Rupanuga prabhu? Can you find any fault in it? Then why harp on character assassination of someone who is writing so nicely to protect Prabhupada's books.

PADA: I have read all of Rupanuga's writings and moreover had personal dealings with him in 1985-6. He was a member of the 1986 "guru reform" committee. I asked him then and ask him now, what is a reformed guru? Why is he still saying the books are not giving diksha, which is what he said since 1977, and so on, and he never answered? I am not character assassinating anyone, these are points of siddhanta i.e. there is no such thing as a guru reform and the books are still giving divyam jnanam which destroys sins aka diksha, this has nothing to do with personalities, these are points of siddhanta. The problem here is simple, even Bhakti Caru speaks just like Rupanuga's article here SOME OF THE TIME, but then he writes another countermanding article, as does Rupanuga. ys pd

CHANDRA DASA: I read the whole letter good valid points.

PADA: Agreed Rupanuga's one letter is good, but we must remember its written the context of Rupanuga's many other writings and statements, which I have asked about for 30 years, and not got a proper reply, ever. ys pd

CHANDRA DASA: perhaps a new start ,hm give peace a chance,a change of heart,a ilttle softeness.

PALAKA DASA: Pd Prabhu sorry your phone conversation with Rupanuga Prabhu wasn't recorded for all to hear . Personally I think you just have an axe to grind with the entirely wrong devotee .

PADA: I am at peace with everything, I am simply saying siddhanta is either properly based or its not. This is about siddhanta. I am not grinding any axes, these are points of siddhanta (a) there was never any such thing as a 50 man guru reform committee before 1986, (b) there is no substance the claim that the books are not able to give divyam jnanam which destroys sins, which means Srila Prabhupada is still the diksha guru. We just had our 20 centers in Russia and 4 in Ukraine meetings, they have Srila Prabhupada as their diksha guru, Rupanuga says they do not, well he is wrong thats all.

So when Rupanuga says we are not making new diksha disciples of Sria Prabhupada, he is just out of touch with the real preaching that is going on, we are making thousands of them all over the world. So this is really an issue of siddhanta. (A) We are saying Srila Prabhupada is the current diksha guru, and we are thus making thousands of new disciples ON THAT PLATFORM OF SIDDHANTA for him. Whereas (B) Rupanuga says Srila Prabhupada is not giving diksha.

PALAKA DASA: Oh so now sheer mathematics mitigates all else . Have you studied this yet ?http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/guru-tattva/dor/dor-index.htm

PADA: So this is rather amazing, our brand new disciples of Srila Prabhupada have more faith in him than his "originals" like Rupanuga and so on. Our new people are preaching about the glories of their diksha guru Srila Prabhupada, and Palaka is trying to stop them, that means Palaka is against Srila Prabhupada being their diksha guru. Good thing our people avoid the faithless. As for Rocana, he is always posting things about the Gaudiya Matha / Mayesvara, and we all know that Rupangua was persoanlly told to make sure this Gaudiya Matha living guru out cropping would not occur in his ISKCON. He failed to make sure that would not occur. Rocana also says that Srila Prabhupada is the posthumous / post samadhi guru, this is very offensive for starters, why is Palaka citing this man? 

Palaka has also failed to explain why our thousands of people are enlivened while Rocana has no followers, no temples, no preaching, no books, no nothing at all, why is nothing better than our something? This sounds like sunnyavada, nothingness is better than something? We have a nice temple in Sunnyvale and they had so many people there on Janmastmi we had to wait 45 minutes to get through the line to see the deity, Rocana has no temple, no darshan, nada, and Palaka thinks Rocana's nothingness program is better than our program of Prabhupada pooja? ys pd

Prabhupadanugas Turkey

http://harekrishnaturkey.wordpress.com/

Russia and Ukraine Prabhupadanuga meeting

http://prabhupadanugas.blogspot.com/2012/10/russian-and-ukrainian-prabhupadanugas.html

Driving in India story

PADA: This story indicates how badly India has fallen from their roots in the Vedic culture. And their attempt to "Westernize" has simply created a chaotic and problematic society, where it is very hard to develop spiritual consciousness. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/20/the-perils-of-driving-in-india-one-man-s-quest-for-a-driver-s-license.html

Locanananda on guru and initiations

http://theharekrishnamovement.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/initiation-protocols-2/

Sweet kirtana here

http://youtu.be/DoEdFmmKaIo

Tanumadhya dasa pic

Superior attachment is required

Book changes web site

http://bookchanges.com/

Srila Prabhupada conversations site

http://krishnakatha.com/

Aindra Kirtanas can be downloaded here

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=a5b19b4d4a14977b&id=A5B19B4D4A14977B%217164

Brooklyn ISKCON evicting Bingo Hall?

ISKCON is evicting their Bingo Hall?

GBC is adopting ritvik system

http://www.iskconirm.com/docs/webpages/btp35_ISKCON_GBCs_Ritvik_Parampara.html

There will be men who will pose as guru

Bhavananda: There will be men, I know. There will be men who want to try and pose themselves as guru.

Tamala Krishna: That was going on many years ago. Your God brothers were thinking like that. Madhava Maharaja…

Bhavananda: Oh, yes. Oh, ready to jump.

Prabhupada: Very strong management required and vigilant observation. (background whispering, Tamala Krishna and Bhavananda) So you are foreign…

Converstion with Srila Prabhupada May 27th 1977.

SATTVIC DASA: This is May 27th the day before Srila Prabhupada discussed the officiating Acharyas (ritvik). Bhavananda clearly stated that there will be men who will try and pose themselves as guru. If Srila Prabhupada wanted them to be guru why did he say "very strong management requires and vigilant observation." 

To do what? Count the birds in the sky? No. Vigilance in preventing any ambitious fools to take the post of guru without the express order of His Divine Grace. What more proof do you need to understand that the whole GBC guru system is rotten at the root? Bhavananda went on sitting on the vyasasana even though in 1976 was caught red handed in Mayapur engaging in homosexual acts with a worker in the goshala. Srila Prabhupada knew this and ordered Bhavananda to go on the boat to preach in Bengal and to follow the caturmasya vrata to atone for his sins. Who is that sane man that will believe that all of a sudden a year later he becomes the next link in the disciplic succession? Are we a bunch of lunatics or are we serious in the acceptance of the transcendental process of Krishna consciousness? Give me a break.

VIDURA SCOTT: Bhavananda had some nerve to try to warn of false guru's!

WILLIAM IRVING MOREHOUSE: These eternal ... vapuvadis have no shame.