Saturday, May 31, 2014
Tripurari Swami speaks on Homosexual's Issue
[PADA: Tripurari Swami's ex-servant told PADA -- he had asked Tripurari -- why he has so many gay disciples? And the servant said -- he was then told by Tripurari "If I do not have a lot of gay disciples, I will not have hardly any disciples." And Tripurari's mentor Sridhara Maharaja created a bi-sexual guru deviation in 1936. Notice also, that the "sympathy for the homosexual agenda" that is being expressed herein by Tripurari is almost identical to the same program of Hrdayananda's and Bir Krishna's "Krishna West."]
http://harmonist.us/2014/05/homosexuality-and-scripture/
TRIPURARI SWAMI: "Therefore, my conviction is that monogamous homosexual relationships are as viable a position from which to cultivate spiritual life as are monogamous heterosexual relationships, and I believe that despite what my guru said decades ago, he would hold the same opinion were he with us today.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada would endorse gay relationships, and gay marriage, if he were here today? This is called mental speculation.]
TS: Since he was with us, a wealth of insight into the nature of homosexuality has come to light, so much that any devotee would do well to carefully consider it when forming his or her opinion on the subject. Times change and with new information new opinions form, and if they are spiritually reasonable, the task for devotees is to support them with scriptural logic -- sastra-yukti -- or the logic that supports the essential conclusions of revelation.
[PADA: OK so, for the past millions of years homosexuality was not authorized, but suddenly now it is authorized? Why? Because times have changed? Abortions are now authorized by the state as well, is that authorized by -- shastra yukti -- because times have changed?]
TS: The difference between you and Srila Prabhupada is very great. You may repeat what he said (kind of) but you have no ability to change when new information is presented; information that is much more readily available to you than it was to him.
[PADA: The difference between Srila Prabhupada and us is, we are authorized to change the things he said "when new information is available." And since this alleged "new information" is more readily available to us than it was to him, that makes us superior authorities than him. So now, we can make changes to his statements whenever we want to? And who are the people creating this "new information" -- the mundane academics? The liberal lobby? Whom?
Basically this is ALSO what some of the "modernized" Christians are also saying, -- abortion, homosexuality, and the general liberalized Western lifestyle are authorized because "times have changed." India has similar problems. Yep, same process as the "Krishna West" crowd, we need to "update" the religion -- and follow the opinions of modern academics, psychotherapists, mundane scholars and so forth.]
TS: What new information? That one born with a homosexual orientation has no choice in the matter, a fact that has come to light only in recent decades. Srila Prabhupada’s views on this subject were informed by the prevailing misinformation of his time.
[PADA: OK, but people are also born as criminals, meat eaters, butchers, drug dealers, atheists, and so on and so forth. The idea is, we need to change the conditioned status that we were born with. We are not supposed to surrender to the conditioned status we were born with, we are supposed to change ourselves in order to become more pure and realized. Prahlad Maharaja was born a the family of the demons, so he changed that status.
There is no "prevailing information at the time" which previously condemned homosexuality as a conditioned defect. Sorry homosexuality is a conditioned defect all the time -- in the past, now, and it will still be a defect in the future. The sincere Christians also believe that homosexuality is a conditioned defect, and they believed that in the past, now, and they will in the future. Of course smoking cigarettes is also a conditioned defect, that does not mean homosexuals and cigarette smokers are to be condemned per se, but it means we cannot institutionalize these deviations or they will take over the religion.]
TS: By our standards Srila Prabhupada was an even greater person (than Abraham Lincoln); not because he held some dated views on various social issues but because he was an empowered pure devotee who was able to free sincere souls from the bondage of material existence. This is what he should and ultimately will be remembered and appreciated for, not for the few dated statements he made about homosexuality.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's comments on homosexuality are "dated"? The modern progressive society is "correct"?]
TS: The verse says that when Lord Brahma created the demons they approached him for sex but were ultimately lured away by the twilight, which appeared to them as a beautiful young woman. The text goes on to elaborate on the alluring qualities of youthful women and how attraction to them clouds the mind of the unintelligent. In that section of the Bhagavatam, only one verse mentions the demons’ sexual attraction to a male, while the ten following verses elaborate on their sexual attraction to a female. Overall, the demons being discussed were obviously more sexually attracted to a woman than they were to a man (Brahma) which indicates that they were not “gay” as we understand the term today.
[PADA: Homosexuality is basically the same as heterosexuality? Oh no pilgrims! Nope, for starters, heterosexual relationships produce a child, and that helps the heterosexuals reduce their sex drive, since they know it produces a child. And moreover, having to deal with their child takes a lot of energy in itself, and gives people less time for thinking about sex.
After there are children, then a whole lot of focus is required to maintain the children, thus the enjoying / party mood is reduced. This is also why so many middle-aged men are trying to get Viagra, their sex desire has crashed -- in part because they already have had kids and so forth.
A middle-aged man we once knew was spending over $15,000 on "sex therapy" and Viagra type drugs to "recover his sex desire," because he could no longer have sex, he had become impotent. He had already produced children, so his sex desire had dwindled. That is the Vedic idea, have children -- and the sex desire will diminish. Then one can clear one's mind to think of God, that's the whole idea. Anyway, Tripurari is doing mental gyrations with the text. The text says, homosexuality is not found in a normal person's life. That is not only the Vedic idea, its the Christian's idea, Buddhist's idea, etc.]
TS: It is also worth mentioning that Prabhupada never backed up his stance on homosexuality with any references from scripture. Even in the purport cited, he does not say that the verse he is commenting on says that homosexuality is demoniac. Instead, using the word “appears,” which indicates a degree of uncertainty, he merely offers his own opinion.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's statements are not from scripture? Tripurari also started a huge attack on Srila Prabhupada's "jiva tattva" ideas, saying the same basic thing, there is no shastra to back up his statements, its all conjecture. Does Tripurari support his views on homosexuals from shastra? And if we accept that shastra is the speaking of a pure devotee, wouldn't these statements also be shastra?]
TS: Elsewhere when discussing the subject he also only cites reasoning that demonstrates that his opinion was based on misinformation.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's idea that homosexuality is an anartha is based on scriptures.]
TS: Srila Prabhupada has said that animals do not have homosexual relations. In this case Srila Prabhupada made an inaccurate statement in support of his position, one that he must have learned from someone else. If we are to take his words as absolute in all respects, as some devotees claim that we must, then we are forced to deny the proven fact that homosexuality is found in the animal species. If not, we must face the fact that the example given by Srila Prabhupada was mistaken.
[PADA: OK well we do not know if any animals engage in homosexuality or not, but for sure its not something we often see in the animal Kingdom, if at all. The idea is -- that animals are not homosexuals generally. We have seen various animals engaged in heterosexual acts, but not seen even one example of homosexual acts. The idea is, its not part of animal behavior as a general rule. Why is Tripurari on a mission to prove that Srila Prabhupada is wrong? Homosexuality is not found in nature as a rule, that means its God's "natural law" not to have this process going on normally. That is the idea.]
TS: In one discussion of the subject Srila Prabhupada even said, “One should take as it is enjoined in the sastras.” This is what I have done, and as I have already stated, Hindu texts are relatively silent on the issue, so it is very difficult to condemn homosexuality on the basis of sastra.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's statements are very clear, and the Christians are also very clear, they do not condone homosexual activity, its an anartha.]
TS: In conclusion, you have made it clear that you feel homosexual relationships established with a view to progress in spiritual life are not to be accepted in the same way that similar heterosexual relationships are. Your arguments on the subject are basically Bible-based religious fundamentalism, as you could not present any verses from Hindu scripture in support of them.
[PADA: Hee hee, right, even the Bible defeats Tripurari swami.]
TS: As for Srila Prabhupada, if it were possible I would welcome a discussion with him on this topic and I feel confidant that in light of present times and information available he would be willing to alter his position in agreement with mine. After all, in regards to his gay disciple Upendra he did exactly that: he sanctioned a committed homosexual relationship with a view to help his disciple progress in spiritual life.
[PADA: Where is this documented?]
TS: That is an oversimplification, Paul. The media is full of heterosexuality, so why not homosexuality? Personally I think it should not be full of either of these expressions. But if one wants to ban public homosexual expression but permit heterosexual public expression, it seems fair to say that one is homophobic, which is defined as an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people, who are simply people born with an attraction to the same sex that is equal to the attraction heterosexuals have toward one another.
And it is also found in other species. It is a naturally occurring exception to the norm. From the Gaudiya perspective it should be curbed or harnessed progressively so as to facilitate spiritual growth, just as heterosexuality should be. Although obviously a slightly different formula is required.
Unfortunately there has been decades of homophobia that led people to think many untruths about the homosexual attraction and as a result people with this attraction have been marginalised in many hurtful ways. Only because such people have spoken up in the last few decades has the public started to recognise the unfair treatment they have been subject to.
Celibacy of monastics properly understood is not erotophobia. It is a well informed choice to forego personal involvement in any form of sexuality. It is not an irrational aversion to sexuality or a condemnation of sexuality
[PADA: Well fine, but all we have to do is to look at ISKCON's history. Under Srila Prabhupada we had 90 percent householders in most temples. After the "gay MAFIA" took over in 1978, the temples are basically empty. The "gay agenda" program does not work. Do the math.
We need varnasrama based on householders, that is what Srila Prabhupada said in 1977. Right now, the problem is that the householders have been marginalized, that is why they are conspicuous by their absence. The marginalized group in ISKCON are the householder, and we were almost all driven out by the Tripurari / Sridhara / GBC / bogus guru's process, and their "gay friendly" agenda, plain and simple. The gay folks have not had a problem existing in ISKCON since 1978, almost everyone else has had problems being able to exist there, including women, children, householders and senior brahmanas etc. ys pd]
http://harmonist.us/2014/05/homosexuality-and-scripture/
TRIPURARI SWAMI: "Therefore, my conviction is that monogamous homosexual relationships are as viable a position from which to cultivate spiritual life as are monogamous heterosexual relationships, and I believe that despite what my guru said decades ago, he would hold the same opinion were he with us today.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada would endorse gay relationships, and gay marriage, if he were here today? This is called mental speculation.]
TS: Since he was with us, a wealth of insight into the nature of homosexuality has come to light, so much that any devotee would do well to carefully consider it when forming his or her opinion on the subject. Times change and with new information new opinions form, and if they are spiritually reasonable, the task for devotees is to support them with scriptural logic -- sastra-yukti -- or the logic that supports the essential conclusions of revelation.
[PADA: OK so, for the past millions of years homosexuality was not authorized, but suddenly now it is authorized? Why? Because times have changed? Abortions are now authorized by the state as well, is that authorized by -- shastra yukti -- because times have changed?]
[PADA: The difference between Srila Prabhupada and us is, we are authorized to change the things he said "when new information is available." And since this alleged "new information" is more readily available to us than it was to him, that makes us superior authorities than him. So now, we can make changes to his statements whenever we want to? And who are the people creating this "new information" -- the mundane academics? The liberal lobby? Whom?
Basically this is ALSO what some of the "modernized" Christians are also saying, -- abortion, homosexuality, and the general liberalized Western lifestyle are authorized because "times have changed." India has similar problems. Yep, same process as the "Krishna West" crowd, we need to "update" the religion -- and follow the opinions of modern academics, psychotherapists, mundane scholars and so forth.]
TS: What new information? That one born with a homosexual orientation has no choice in the matter, a fact that has come to light only in recent decades. Srila Prabhupada’s views on this subject were informed by the prevailing misinformation of his time.
[PADA: OK, but people are also born as criminals, meat eaters, butchers, drug dealers, atheists, and so on and so forth. The idea is, we need to change the conditioned status that we were born with. We are not supposed to surrender to the conditioned status we were born with, we are supposed to change ourselves in order to become more pure and realized. Prahlad Maharaja was born a the family of the demons, so he changed that status.
There is no "prevailing information at the time" which previously condemned homosexuality as a conditioned defect. Sorry homosexuality is a conditioned defect all the time -- in the past, now, and it will still be a defect in the future. The sincere Christians also believe that homosexuality is a conditioned defect, and they believed that in the past, now, and they will in the future. Of course smoking cigarettes is also a conditioned defect, that does not mean homosexuals and cigarette smokers are to be condemned per se, but it means we cannot institutionalize these deviations or they will take over the religion.]
TS: By our standards Srila Prabhupada was an even greater person (than Abraham Lincoln); not because he held some dated views on various social issues but because he was an empowered pure devotee who was able to free sincere souls from the bondage of material existence. This is what he should and ultimately will be remembered and appreciated for, not for the few dated statements he made about homosexuality.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's comments on homosexuality are "dated"? The modern progressive society is "correct"?]
[PADA: Homosexuality is basically the same as heterosexuality? Oh no pilgrims! Nope, for starters, heterosexual relationships produce a child, and that helps the heterosexuals reduce their sex drive, since they know it produces a child. And moreover, having to deal with their child takes a lot of energy in itself, and gives people less time for thinking about sex.
After there are children, then a whole lot of focus is required to maintain the children, thus the enjoying / party mood is reduced. This is also why so many middle-aged men are trying to get Viagra, their sex desire has crashed -- in part because they already have had kids and so forth.
A middle-aged man we once knew was spending over $15,000 on "sex therapy" and Viagra type drugs to "recover his sex desire," because he could no longer have sex, he had become impotent. He had already produced children, so his sex desire had dwindled. That is the Vedic idea, have children -- and the sex desire will diminish. Then one can clear one's mind to think of God, that's the whole idea. Anyway, Tripurari is doing mental gyrations with the text. The text says, homosexuality is not found in a normal person's life. That is not only the Vedic idea, its the Christian's idea, Buddhist's idea, etc.]
TS: It is also worth mentioning that Prabhupada never backed up his stance on homosexuality with any references from scripture. Even in the purport cited, he does not say that the verse he is commenting on says that homosexuality is demoniac. Instead, using the word “appears,” which indicates a degree of uncertainty, he merely offers his own opinion.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's statements are not from scripture? Tripurari also started a huge attack on Srila Prabhupada's "jiva tattva" ideas, saying the same basic thing, there is no shastra to back up his statements, its all conjecture. Does Tripurari support his views on homosexuals from shastra? And if we accept that shastra is the speaking of a pure devotee, wouldn't these statements also be shastra?]
TS: Elsewhere when discussing the subject he also only cites reasoning that demonstrates that his opinion was based on misinformation.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's idea that homosexuality is an anartha is based on scriptures.]
TS: Srila Prabhupada has said that animals do not have homosexual relations. In this case Srila Prabhupada made an inaccurate statement in support of his position, one that he must have learned from someone else. If we are to take his words as absolute in all respects, as some devotees claim that we must, then we are forced to deny the proven fact that homosexuality is found in the animal species. If not, we must face the fact that the example given by Srila Prabhupada was mistaken.
[PADA: OK well we do not know if any animals engage in homosexuality or not, but for sure its not something we often see in the animal Kingdom, if at all. The idea is -- that animals are not homosexuals generally. We have seen various animals engaged in heterosexual acts, but not seen even one example of homosexual acts. The idea is, its not part of animal behavior as a general rule. Why is Tripurari on a mission to prove that Srila Prabhupada is wrong? Homosexuality is not found in nature as a rule, that means its God's "natural law" not to have this process going on normally. That is the idea.]
TS: In one discussion of the subject Srila Prabhupada even said, “One should take as it is enjoined in the sastras.” This is what I have done, and as I have already stated, Hindu texts are relatively silent on the issue, so it is very difficult to condemn homosexuality on the basis of sastra.
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada's statements are very clear, and the Christians are also very clear, they do not condone homosexual activity, its an anartha.]
TS: In conclusion, you have made it clear that you feel homosexual relationships established with a view to progress in spiritual life are not to be accepted in the same way that similar heterosexual relationships are. Your arguments on the subject are basically Bible-based religious fundamentalism, as you could not present any verses from Hindu scripture in support of them.
[PADA: Hee hee, right, even the Bible defeats Tripurari swami.]
TS: As for Srila Prabhupada, if it were possible I would welcome a discussion with him on this topic and I feel confidant that in light of present times and information available he would be willing to alter his position in agreement with mine. After all, in regards to his gay disciple Upendra he did exactly that: he sanctioned a committed homosexual relationship with a view to help his disciple progress in spiritual life.
[PADA: Where is this documented?]
TS: That is an oversimplification, Paul. The media is full of heterosexuality, so why not homosexuality? Personally I think it should not be full of either of these expressions. But if one wants to ban public homosexual expression but permit heterosexual public expression, it seems fair to say that one is homophobic, which is defined as an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people, who are simply people born with an attraction to the same sex that is equal to the attraction heterosexuals have toward one another.
And it is also found in other species. It is a naturally occurring exception to the norm. From the Gaudiya perspective it should be curbed or harnessed progressively so as to facilitate spiritual growth, just as heterosexuality should be. Although obviously a slightly different formula is required.
Unfortunately there has been decades of homophobia that led people to think many untruths about the homosexual attraction and as a result people with this attraction have been marginalised in many hurtful ways. Only because such people have spoken up in the last few decades has the public started to recognise the unfair treatment they have been subject to.
Celibacy of monastics properly understood is not erotophobia. It is a well informed choice to forego personal involvement in any form of sexuality. It is not an irrational aversion to sexuality or a condemnation of sexuality
[PADA: Well fine, but all we have to do is to look at ISKCON's history. Under Srila Prabhupada we had 90 percent householders in most temples. After the "gay MAFIA" took over in 1978, the temples are basically empty. The "gay agenda" program does not work. Do the math.
We need varnasrama based on householders, that is what Srila Prabhupada said in 1977. Right now, the problem is that the householders have been marginalized, that is why they are conspicuous by their absence. The marginalized group in ISKCON are the householder, and we were almost all driven out by the Tripurari / Sridhara / GBC / bogus guru's process, and their "gay friendly" agenda, plain and simple. The gay folks have not had a problem existing in ISKCON since 1978, almost everyone else has had problems being able to exist there, including women, children, householders and senior brahmanas etc. ys pd]
Friday, May 30, 2014
Women and non-brahmanas appointed as priests +news
News from Bangalore ISKCON --
Hare Krishna,
The birth of Ramanuja
As predicted by Lord Parthasarathy, Bhudevi very soon delivered a male baby on a Thursday, which was the fifth day of the waxing moon when ardra asterism was prevailing in the Chittirai month of pingala year, which is believed to be the 4118th year of Kali-yuga (1071 A.D).
Jai Srila Prabhupada!
Pandharpur temple allows women, men of all castes as priests
The 900-year-old place of worship is challenging the entrenched tradition of patriarchy and casteism in one stroke. The temple administration has already interviewed women and those from outside the Brahmin community for appointing them as priests.
TTD may do away with Divya Darshan tokens during weekends
The Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams (TTD) management is seriously contemplating over the proposal of dispensing with the issuance of Divya Darshan tokens, issued half-way on the footpath leading to the sacred shrine, during the weekends.
Cucumber Salad (Kosambri)
This is popularly called Kosambri in Karnataka and is a good appetizer. This dish can be prepared during the fasting days (Ekadashi) as well by adding cumin instead of mustard.
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Online Team
ISKCON TimesCan We Stop the Paparazzi Kirtan?
[PADA: We were told that the Sadhusangha retreat cost $250.00 per person. Maybe that is why they only had 1400 people attending. ys pd]
ANON: Another one of my offensive opinions that will secure a spot for me in eternal hell.
Can we stop with the paparazzi kirtans? What's a paparazzi kirtan? It's when a few charismatic leaders take over the central kirtan space, and everyone is cordoned off into an observers area where they take out their cell phones and start filming the celebrities in awe like the TMZ crew. Put down the cell phones and be part of the kirtan.
And for the leaders, stop dominating the kirtan and just be a part of it. Stop being the focus of everything. Let Krishna and the holy name be the focus and give up your false distinction. Become one of the devotees, and let everyone partake of the kirtan together as equals.
ISKCON has become a personality cult, where the focus is now on a few charismatic leaders. These same leaders who are now the celebrities of ISKCON will be gone in a few years. I have seen different groups of celebrities over the decades. In the 80's the celebrity group was different, in the 90's the celebrity group was different, and in both cases I can't see a single one of them left remaining today. The present batch of celebrities will also disappear just like the previous batches of celebrities disappeared. It happens through a variety of ways - old age, disease, death, or some just leave the movement.
The present group of leaders and celebrities in ISKCON were completely unheard of in the 80's and 90's. Even though the ISKCON history has been rewritten to make them appear as though they were very prominent in ISKCON from the beginning, the fact is they simply filled the void when the previous batch of celebrities left. They were not prominent before that in ISKCON and played little role in leading ISKCON.
In the same way, history will repeat itself, and this present batch of kirtan celebrities will fade out and new people will fill that void, and again the history will be rewritten to make it appear as though the new celebrities had led ISKCON from Srila Prabhupada's times. This is the system of paparazzi kirtan, and for the benefit of the Hare Krishna movement, it should be stopped.
[Achievement unlocked: Purchased ticket to eternal hell.]
Thursday, May 29, 2014
New York Harinama Party
PADA: This scene looks like the way forward: a very mellow program, not aggressive to the public, public members who want a book can get one -- without feeling harassed, maybe some prasadam to hand out, i.e. the soft pedal process. Jehovah's Witnesses also set up book tables all around the city around here, with the men dressed in nice suits and the ladies wearing Sunday Church style clothes. Real nice image. This is what needs to be done for the future, maybe for the indefinite future. Lord Chaitanya's Harinama Samkirtana movement is not about selling rock and roll records, candles, jewelry, Pope buttons, NFL football stickers, Hong Kong oil paintings, and so forth. The image has to change, and we are glad to see some folks doing things in a more mature manner. Long overdue. ys pd
India Courts Can't Decide: Dead or Meditating?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/indian-guru-dead-or-meditating-170-million-depends-answer-n117691
[PADA: Yep, the "Jaipur For Truth" people told PADA -- we have to accept the version and verdict of the courts in India, or else we are bogus. However, as we see herein, the courts over there cannot even rule one way or the other -- whether or not -- a "guru" whose body has been stuck inside a freezer for months on end, is alive or dead?
Hello "Jaipur for Truth" folks, are you people smoking the happy weed, or what is it exactly? Sorry, but even the Western Media people are saying to themselves, what is the big problem with the courts over there?
The body is being stored in a freezer for a reason, and the reason is ... oh never mind! And the GBC folks also rented a freezer to store Kirtanananda's body over there, and he too is "in samadhi." Really? We have to accept this is all "samadhi" -- because the courts cannot figure this out?
Where are my percodans when I need them! Sheesh! ys pd]
================================
Ashutosh Maharaja
[PADA: Yep, the "Jaipur For Truth" people told PADA -- we have to accept the version and verdict of the courts in India, or else we are bogus. However, as we see herein, the courts over there cannot even rule one way or the other -- whether or not -- a "guru" whose body has been stuck inside a freezer for months on end, is alive or dead?
Hello "Jaipur for Truth" folks, are you people smoking the happy weed, or what is it exactly? Sorry, but even the Western Media people are saying to themselves, what is the big problem with the courts over there?
The body is being stored in a freezer for a reason, and the reason is ... oh never mind! And the GBC folks also rented a freezer to store Kirtanananda's body over there, and he too is "in samadhi." Really? We have to accept this is all "samadhi" -- because the courts cannot figure this out?
Where are my percodans when I need them! Sheesh! ys pd]
================================
Vedaveda Site Updates
http://www.vedaveda.com/articles/2014/today4.html
SRILA PRABHUPADA KI JAI!
SRILA PRABHUPADA KI JAI!
***MAYA WILL GO AWAY***
Viṣṇujana: How will it be possible, Prabhupada, for a man whose mind is clouded to constantly chant Hare Krsna? A man who's always thinking thoughts about family, friends, country, nation?
Prabhupada: Yes. Thinking of at the same time, chant. Two things will go on, and this (chanting) will conquer. (chuckling) As maya is forcing you to drag you from this Krsna consciousness, you also force maya by chanting Hare Krsna. There is fight. And maya will go away.
Daivi hy esa gunamayimam eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14)
This maya is very strong. She'll force you to entice you to other path. But if you do not stop, if you chant loudly -- this is tug of war. So don't be afraid of maya. Simply enhance your chanting and you'll be conqueror. That's all. Narayana-parah sarve na kutascana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28).
Prabhupada: Yes. Thinking of at the same time, chant. Two things will go on, and this (chanting) will conquer. (chuckling) As maya is forcing you to drag you from this Krsna consciousness, you also force maya by chanting Hare Krsna. There is fight. And maya will go away.
Daivi hy esa gunamayimam eva ye prapadyante (BG 7.14)
This maya is very strong. She'll force you to entice you to other path. But if you do not stop, if you chant loudly -- this is tug of war. So don't be afraid of maya. Simply enhance your chanting and you'll be conqueror. That's all. Narayana-parah sarve na kutascana bibhyati (SB 6.17.28).
We are not afraid of maya because Kṛṣṇa is there. Yes. Krsna says, kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktaḥ pranasyati (BG 9.31). You just declare, "My devotee will never be vanquished by maya." Maya cannot do anything. Simply you have to become strong. And what is that strength? Chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, very loudly".... 68/12/23 Los Angeles, Bhagavad-gita 3.6-10
============================================
Wednesday, May 28, 2014
Hari Sauri Re-writes History (Again)
ISKCON History Revisionist: Hari Sauri das
PADA: I am sorry to hear that Hari Sauri das (aka Denis Harrison) is still saying that me and Sulochana "left ISKCON" (blooped) in 1976. That is physically impossible -- since Sulochana was well known as a prominent poojari at the Bhaktivedanta Manor in 1977. And former Bhaktivedanta Manor folks like Ranchor, Rohinandan, Jaya Laxman, Bhajahari, Tribhanghananda, Vicitravirya, Ramadevi, -- even Sulochana's ex-wife Jamuna -- in sum hundreds of folks were there when me and Sulochana were both there in 1977. Sulochana was doing his poojari program while I was running the Spiritual Sky business, which is of course -- all documented.
When Srila Prabhupada came to UK in 1977, I personally offered my baby son at his feet. Yes really, my son has a UK birth certificate. What this proves is -- that Hari Sauri does not research his stories. How in the world (!!!) Hari Sauri could have missed the entire story of Sulochan leaving New Vrndavana in 1984 is beyond belief. How could Hari Sauri not know that both me and Sulochana were still part of ISKCON -- way AFTER -- 1976, when millions and millions of people read the newspaper accounts of what happened when me and Sulochana left -- much later?
In 1979 I was also challenging Jayatirtha while living in UK, and there are hundreds of eye-witnesses. How could I have been there challenging Jayatirtha in 1979, if I was out of ISKCON in 1976? In 1979 me and Sulochana were still associated together, and I advised him to NOT to move to New Vrndavana. In short, all kinds of people saw us associated together in England after 1976. The book "Monkey On A Stick" accurately portrays that we were together in England, although the book gives me a pen name for safety reasons. What is this really? Its another attempt at re-writing history in order to demonize us and Sulochana as some sort of "fringe cranks."
Of course demonizing us Vaishnavas has -- sometimes fatal -- results. Thus, after the Hari Sauri's ilk demonized us as "fringe cranks" in the early 1980s, this resulted in Sulochana being assassinated. Its amazing that after demonizing us, and getting Sulochana killed -- and getting me almost killed (I was being chased by goondas and had to be saved by the police) Hari Sauri's party still thinks they have done the right thing by demonizing us, when their party has the blood of Sulochana all over their hands by their demonizing us, and they are still at it? Not enough blood on their hands already?
Whatever me and Sulochana did in 1976, no one was hurt, nor -- banned, beaten, abused nor molested, nor killed? Yet in post-1977 under Hari Sauri's regime, thousands of us were banned, many were beaten, thousands of minors were molested, and some of us were killed. What does me and Sulochana's 1976 issue have to do with any of these Hari Sauri party's crimes? Its a smokescreen, another diversion.
Isn't Hari Sauri's program a MUCH bigger problem than whatever happened to us in 1976, when our program harmed not one hair on the head of one person? Me and Sulochana were never charged with any crimes, nor was any actual crime even mentioned. We were chastised for some sort of mis-understanding, but then we went back to doing our service in ISKCON as hundreds of people know very well, and is recorded as our mutual legal address records in the UK etc. Devotees were being chastised every day, this was a normal part of ISKCON at the time.
Very odd! Why would we even have to tell people that Sulochana was part of ISKCON after 1976 is beyond staggering the imagination, since millions and millions of people know -- that is NOT what happened. The mass of public ALL know that me and him were part of ISKCON way beyond 1976, BECAUSE this was all over the news media ALL OVER THE WORLD. Its amazing that even the karmi media still consults with me recently -- because they know the whole story, that me and Sulochana were connected after 1976. Even the karmis know the history of ISKCON better than Hari Sauri ever will.
This is just another smokescreen effort to hide the real history of Hari Sauri's regime and the real damage his regime has caused to thousands of people. For starters Hari Sauri was a huge supporter of the GBC's bogus gurus like Bhavananada. And he himself then became the grandiose "Prabhupada Kripa Maharaja." These folks were famous for flying around the world in Boeing Wide Body luxury flights -- a jet-set lifestyle.
For that matter -- a lot of them STILL ARE flying all over the world, sparing no expense on themselves. Sulochana used to call these people "The Gay MAFIA." Sulochana used to joke, some of them are gay, some of them are gangsters, some of them are both gay and gangsters, but when they are all combined together, we are in severe danger. Sulochana may have joked about this from time to time, but he also seriously thought he could die from opposing Hari Sauri's "Gay MAFIA," and he did die by opposing them.
Bhavananda used to lecture how he was flying everywhere to "find the right sized diamond studded writing pen." These people as a group were living like arrogant kings, with gold and diamond jewelry, a cadre of servants, eating huge feasts, riding around in fancy airplanes and luxury cars, wearing silken clothes, staying in luxury five star hotels, and so on and so forth. Bhavananda was also having homosexual affairs with taxi drivers in Vrndavana and other unspeakable escapades. He made a movie "Bhavananda does Hollywood" where he is featured driving to famous actors houses and showing off in his Cadillac convertible, which simply begs the question, why is Hari Sauri still a huge fan of Bhavananda even today?
And why are many of the GBC's group (and now their clones -- the Prahlad group) quoting folks like Hari Sauri as their authority, even today? How come these people never understood that homosexuals and fools are not messiahs, and we should not quote the handmaidens of these deviants as our history lesson authorities?
Hari Sauri was appointed as GBC of Australia in 1979 -- where he became the biggest cheer leader and right hand man to Bhavananda, and he still is Bhavananda's right hand man for that matter. Hari Sauri is STILL always seen at Mayapura with all these pals and chums, even now. Problem is, while these Hari Sauri ilk guys were living like The opulent Almighty King Dictators of Jagat, many of the children in their care were being deprived of basic material needs.
In sum, the Hari Sauri group was STEALING the money meant to care for the children so they could live like wealthy jet-set princes.
And of course there were other complaints of neglect and mistreatment from a number of the ex-children, including sexual abuse and so on. However, as these children suffered -- the Hari Sauri program was out there having a full tilt party mode going on. In sum, while these "leaders" and "gurus" were often eating like the giant hogs that they are, living like millionaire princes, meanwhile the children under their "watchful eye" were suffering terribly from neglect and abuse -- in large part because -- funds for the children's care was being SIPHONED OFF to support the opulent lifestyles of the Hari Sauri crowd. And when me and Sulochana addressed this issue, we were demonized in order to -- get us killed. And these Hari Sauri folks are the people who we should listen to as our authorities?
Anyway, what does any of this have to do with me and Sulochana in 1976? Hmm, well after especially 1984, when we began exposing that the Hari Sauri program is mistreating children, then the Hari Sauri program demonized us by citing an overblown and bogus account of the 1976 incident -- in order to have us killed, so Hari Sauri's party could save their real program -- a program of abuse of children, at least according to a stack of ex-children's accounts and legal affidavits.
We were not the only victims of course. Folks like for example Raghunanandan das were ALSO complaining that the GBC ilk like Hari Sauri were ganging up on him as well: "I was quite well know then, and I got preached against STRONGLY by all of the following: BS Damodar Maharaj, Bhakti Caru Maharaja, Surabhi Swami, (Hari Sauri aka) Prabhupada Kripa Swami, Tamal Krishna Goswami, and more ... the list is quite long. I went through political hell to be honest."
Hari Sauri promoting the GBC's gurus.
PADA: Right, anyone who protested the Hari Sauri child abuse infrastructure program was "treated like hell." Or killed. Exactly! Eventually, the child abuse issue had to go to court, because people like us who dissented could be targets of violence. There was simply too much danger in trying to expose this issue "in house," due to the violent fanaticism of the Hari Sauri group. In any case, Hari Sauri never consulted me, Sulochan, Mahasaumya, Jagajivana, Riktananda, or anyone else involved in the 1976 issue, for our side of the story. He never even asked the devotees in UK if we were living there etc. He just demonizes anyone who opposes his child abuse infrastructure bogus messiah's project.
Hari Sauri embellished and demonized us in the 1976 story for a reason, to make us seem super evil -- so he could get us killed, and he did get some of us killed. And that is also why GBC clones like the Sanat, Mukunda and Prahlad team are now siding with -- and thus citing Hari Sauri's version. Of course they are also siding with and citing another GBC apologist and Radhanath groupie -- Bhakta Das. And worse, they are now siding with and thus citing the Jayapataka / Radhanath / Dayarama court case to further demonize us. At any rate, the reason that Hari Sauri is still the big spokesman for the GBC is that he has been their biggest defender all along.
We are sorry to have to report this news, but people like Hari Sauri have been one of the BIG reasons so much corruption goes on in ISKCON. As soon as me and Sulochana tried to correct ANY problem, including the abuse problem, the Hari Sauri team helped the GBC goondas cut us down, and they did cut us down. The result was -- that the crimes and abuse continued and then they added "murders of dissenters" to the heap of garbage the Hari Sauri team has been shoveling into ISKCON. Without getting into too many more details here, the list of bogus things the Hari Sauri program does is almost endless, but includes burying deviants in the holy dham, claiming the parampara is contaminated with illicit sex, ok its going to take another 500 pages of writing to finish this part.
We'd like to end this story with a warning from Srila Prabhupada. He said that if anyone merely glares at a Vaishnava, he has to take birth as a vulture, where he will be glaring at others all day long. Hari Sauri's program has helped train thousands of people to glare at the Vaishnavas, and even, to want to drink the blood of the Vaishnavas by killing them. Sulochana used to often say, I would not trade billions of years of my past bad karma for a few seconds of their future karma. He is right. ys pd
Training people to glare at Vaishnavas, not a good occupation.
================================
Hari Sauri (Denis Harrison) listed in a number of ISKCON spin-off corporations:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/features/06-10/features1773.htm
Madhu Pandit das: Re: neglected deity
Madhu Pandit das: Question asked by Ranjith Muniraj: What happens if a deity is installed initially; it is worshiped sincerely; later -- after few generations if it is not taken care or worshiped, is sin carried to the people who had installed the deities? And what happens to the deities, is the lord present in the deity even if the deity is not being worshiped?
My reply:- Deity incarnation is very merciful incarnation of the Lord in this material world. While installing Him by inviting Him to reside in the Deity by Himself becoming a form similar to the material substance of the murti, we have to be responsible as humanly as possible to ensure seva goes on in a befitting manner. Recklessly one cannot install without proper arrangement for worship. Again the installer cannot control future. In fact Lord is the controller of Kala. Therefore I said as ‘humanly’ possible we should ensure that the seva goes on before installing. The Lord is swarat. He can be bound only by Love. He can never be bound by matter of the Deity unlike how we are bound by this material body.
In fact by the descending of the Lord in a form similar to the Deity, the matter of the Deity becomes spiritually transparent or spiritualized by the internal energies that accompany Him, resulting in nullifying effect of three modes on the devotee seer or worshipper. In other words the matter becomes spirit or pure brahman, its original state free from three modes. Thus we can see that there is nothing material in the Deity. Everything is spiritual.
Suppose pujaris are not careful and protective, some thieves see the value of the metal and steals the Deity, do you think that the Lord can be stolen like that unless the Lord Himself decides to go through the hands of the thieves in order to purify them just like the thief in Vrindavan who had intense desire to see Krishna to rob His ornaments completely, after he had heard about the Lord from the Bhagavatm reciter. If the thief’s intention is to melt, do you think Lord will go with him when he steals the murti? Obviously not. He will only touch matter.
I hope this answers your question.
Hari bol…
My reply:- Deity incarnation is very merciful incarnation of the Lord in this material world. While installing Him by inviting Him to reside in the Deity by Himself becoming a form similar to the material substance of the murti, we have to be responsible as humanly as possible to ensure seva goes on in a befitting manner. Recklessly one cannot install without proper arrangement for worship. Again the installer cannot control future. In fact Lord is the controller of Kala. Therefore I said as ‘humanly’ possible we should ensure that the seva goes on before installing. The Lord is swarat. He can be bound only by Love. He can never be bound by matter of the Deity unlike how we are bound by this material body.
In fact by the descending of the Lord in a form similar to the Deity, the matter of the Deity becomes spiritually transparent or spiritualized by the internal energies that accompany Him, resulting in nullifying effect of three modes on the devotee seer or worshipper. In other words the matter becomes spirit or pure brahman, its original state free from three modes. Thus we can see that there is nothing material in the Deity. Everything is spiritual.
Thus we see that Lord when He descends into the Deity body, His energies influence the matter and not other way around. Deity is ever liberated. Only love binds him. Srila Prabhupada says “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as bhava-grahe janardana because He takes only the essence of a devotee's attitude.” Why should He bound to the Murti if worship stops? He is infinitely merciful and tolerant. He will not go away so easily. Only when He is offended by active neglect He obviously goes away. It is all interpersonal factors between devotees and Deity - like how the Sakshi Gopal Deity walked thousands of miles to bear witness for the reputation of His devotee.
There can be no fixed rule to ascertain that the Lord has left. When the Lord goes away, the Murti is again matter with influence as three modes of nature. He is completely free; he may not go away at all. He may wait for some other devotee to come and serve Him and permit the murti to be buried for centuries and again come back when the right devotee appears to offer seva. He is omnipotent. The principle is that He is bound by the love of the Acarya training his sadhaka disciples to worship Him. Thus he is also bound for simple follower of a pure devotee who invited Him because of his obedience to the Acharya.
There can be no fixed rule to ascertain that the Lord has left. When the Lord goes away, the Murti is again matter with influence as three modes of nature. He is completely free; he may not go away at all. He may wait for some other devotee to come and serve Him and permit the murti to be buried for centuries and again come back when the right devotee appears to offer seva. He is omnipotent. The principle is that He is bound by the love of the Acarya training his sadhaka disciples to worship Him. Thus he is also bound for simple follower of a pure devotee who invited Him because of his obedience to the Acharya.
Suppose pujaris are not careful and protective, some thieves see the value of the metal and steals the Deity, do you think that the Lord can be stolen like that unless the Lord Himself decides to go through the hands of the thieves in order to purify them just like the thief in Vrindavan who had intense desire to see Krishna to rob His ornaments completely, after he had heard about the Lord from the Bhagavatm reciter. If the thief’s intention is to melt, do you think Lord will go with him when he steals the murti? Obviously not. He will only touch matter.
I hope this answers your question.
Hari bol…
Tuesday, May 27, 2014
About Lord Chaitanya's Movement
http://24hourkirtan.fm/web/
Lord Chaitanya's Harinama Samkirtana Movement
Lord Chaitanya's "Harinama Samkirtana" movement is said to be something that has descended to us from Vaikuntha, the spiritual kingdom of God. After all, what are the activities of the residents of Vaiknutha? OK, they are ALL cent percent engaged in -- Harinama Samkirtana -- i.e. the residents of Vaikuntha are all singing (kirtana) the name of God (hari) in a congregation (sam) = samkirtana. That is basically what is going on there, constantly and eternally. The means -- all the activities there, such as talking, thinking, willing, feeling, moving, acting, singing etc. are all based on the principle of serving, praising (and singing to) -- God.
Thus, if we conditioned souls here in the material world ALSO engage in the same activities as the residents of Vaikuntha, we are -- at least theoretically -- also in Vaikuntha. In other words, if we behave like the residents of Vaikuntha, we are on our way there, or even, we are already there. The Christians have a somewhat similar idea, they also sing all kinds of hymns to God, the idea being, -- that is what the angels already living in heaven are all doing. So the Christians want to imitate the activities of the angels in heaven, and thus join in with the angels of heaven singing hymns in the Spiritual World with God. Its another form of the "Harinama Samkirtana" process.
Unfortunately, when the Harinama Samkirtan program of the residents of Krishna's planet is transported to this material world, there are all kinds of big problems. For starters, the material world is not going to receive this process with open arms. The residents of the material world are naturally averse to the glorification of God, and that is why the conditioned souls are here in the first place.
The Harinama process goes against the grain of material existence i.e. -- forgetfulness of God. All kinds of envious people will then come out of the woodwork to try and thwart the whole process of getting people engaged in serving God, and singing to God etc., since that breaks down the illusion of material existence and establishes people's original nature as God's servants. Of course, Jesus is an example of some of the types of problems that evolve when a fully spiritualized soul mixes with the ignorant materialized souls.
The duty of illusion or Maya, and / or her servants and agents, is to keep the conditioned souls captured, and so -- part of that process is to suppress the Harinama Samkirtana program. And since the material world is known as hellish place of forgetting God, how can we expect that the activities of the spiritual world are going to be allowed to be transferred here, and to prosper and grow here? We may find that the Harinama Samkirtana process is seen as a threat to the materialist's culture, and so it will be suppressed and compromised with material things -- to water it down and reduce its effect of saving the conditioned souls.
This is also related to our karma of course, if we have the karma of being citizens of Kali Yuga, that means we were not very God conscious and / or sincere in the first place. The main flow of the current of the conditioned energy (or Maya Shakti) in Kali Yuga is leading the whole society towards darkness, its flowing in the opposite direction of taking us to Vaikuntha. We'd have to swim very harder against this flow to make any progress. Understanding this extreme difficulty is why Lord Chaitanya makes the process easier for us in Kali Yuga. All we have to do is to remember Krishna, i.e. sing Harinama, or even just try to do that, and He will help us out here.
So, on the one hand, we've got bad karma -- its terrible for us to born be inside of this dark age of Kali Yuga, while on the other hand, if we lived in other epochs and eras, we might have to perform austerities for thousands of years to make any progress. Whatever happens in our Kali Yuga lives, at least we can take shelter of the nama of Krishna and we are immediately connected to His mercy. That is a real blessing to have, in any age, era, epoch, or within any place in the universe -- including this hellish place of planet earth during Kali Yuga. We think Aindra prabhu was in the process of trying to revive the Harinama Samkirtana process, and that is why he said "the powers that be" (the materially minded GBC) suppressed him.
Unfortunately, the Prabhupadanugas will probably have to try to re-establish the Harinama movement independent of these mundane ecclesiastical GBC guru folks. At the same time, we have to understand that our being in the middle of all sorts of people who want to suppress the glorification of God is due to our own previous conditioning, where we were ourselves suppressing the Harinama process for ourselves or others. So now its our karma to be with such sinful people, because, we were one of them ourselves. We are in the prison house of bad behaving prisoners, because we were bad behaving ourselves.
So we should now get very serious about connecting to Krishna -- and thus avoid having to deal with this type of "Harinama suppressing" situation again in our future lives. As we sang in church as a child, "when Jesus's train stops at your door, get on the train and do not let it go on without you." Right, because you may not get another train to stop at your door for another million years.
Most of our stalwart big leaders of ISKCON fell prey to material sex-life attraction and that has diverted them from the Harinama process. They jumped off the Vaikuntha train to get a few baubles of ill-gotten material wealth. Most of them ran back to material life. What is ironic is that most of these big GBC leaders like Hari Sauri, Jayatirtha, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, Bhagavan, Harikesha, Kirtanananda, and many similar others, they worked feverishly hard to make the Harinama Samkirtana movement useless and un-inhabitable for all of us. They criminalized those of us who wanted to chant the Harinama process, and basically spent 20 years burning down Lord Chaitanya's house.
Then, most of them just walked off from the burnt wreckage, because even they could not live in the house they had burnt to ashes themselves. They made Lord Chaitanya's movement un-inhabitable, even for themselves, even they could not live there anymore. So Srila Prabhupada warns, the responsibility of being a GBC is very great, and if its mis-used, the punishment is also very great. In other words, suppress Lord Chaitanya's movement -- at your peril. Its easy to see why -- anyone who suppresses the Lord's movement will be in severe trouble with the agents of the Lord.
Anyway, this material attraction problem is also what plagues various Christians, some of the Catholic Church's priests, various Hindu "gurus," big politicians, and so on and so forth, so thus this should serve as a warning sign to all of us. Here are a few quotes that we should also keep in mind when dealing with the material energy: ys pd
=================================
Sbject: Slavery : The cause of the material conditioned life : Attraction for the prison of family life
To:
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Freedom and Slavery
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A wretched person is one who cannot control his senses, whereas one who is not attached to sense gratification is a real controller. One who attaches himself to sense gratification is the opposite, a slave.
-Krishna, Srimad Bhagavatam 11.19.45
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Attraction for the prison of family life
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My dear Lord, we pray that we may never feel attraction for the prison of family life, consisting of home, wife, children, friends, bank balance, relatives and so on. If we do have some attachment, let it be for devotees, whose only dear friend is Krsna. A person who is actually self-realized and who has controlled his mind is perfectly satisfied with the bare necessities of life. He does not try to gratify his senses. Such a person quickly advances in Krsna consciousness, whereas others, who are too attached to material things, find advancement very difficult.
-Srimad Bhagavatam 5.18.10
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The cause of the material conditioned life
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“…attraction for woman’s association is the cause of the material conditional life, and anyone interested in being freed from this conditional life must detach himself from the association of women.”
(purport, Bhag. 3.31.35)
Simad Bhagavatam 5.5.8: The attraction between male and female is the basic principle of material existence. On the basis of this misconception, which ties together the hearts of the male and female, one becomes attracted to his body, home, property, children, relatives and wealth. In this way one increases life's illusions and thinks in terms of "I and mine."
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http://www.brahmacarya.info/2010/07/cure-for-restlessness/
“To become restless in the contact of women and wealth is not an astonishment, because every living being is associated with such things from remote time, practically immemorial, and it takes time to recover from this foreign nature. But if one is engaged in hearing the glories of the Lord, gradually he realizes his real position. By the grace of God such a devotee gets sufficient strength to defend himself from the state of disturbances, and gradually all disturbing elements are eliminated from his mind.”
[SB 1.2.17]
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The Way of Bondage
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“When the mind is allowed to think of sense gratification continuously, it becomes the cause of our material bondage. If our mind is simply filled with sense gratification, even though we want Krsna consciousness, by continuous practice we cannot forget the subject matter of sense gratification. If one takes up the sannyasa order of life but is not able to control the mind, he will think of objects of sense gratification – namely family, society, expensive house, etc. Even though he goes to the Himalayas or the forest, his mind will continue thinking of the objects of sense gratification. In this way, gradually one’s intelligence will be affected. When intelligence is affected, one loses his original taste for Krsna consciousness.”
[SB 4.22.30]
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The Charms of Maya
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Srimad Bhagavatam (3.30.8)
He gives heart and senses to a woman, who falsely charms him with maya. He enjoys solitary embraces and talking with her, and he is enchanted by the sweet words of the small children.
Srila Prabhupada’s commentary:
Family life within the kingdom of illusory energy, maya, is just like a prison for the eternal living entity. In prison a prisoner is shackled by iron chains and iron bars. Similarly, a conditioned soul is shackled by the charming beauty of a woman, by her solitary embraces and talks of so-called love, and by the sweet words of his small children. Thus he forgets his real identity.
In this verse the words strinam asatinam indicate that womanly love is just to agitate the mind of man. Actually, in the material world there is no love. Both the woman and the man are interested in their sense gratification. For sense gratification a woman creates an illusory love, and the man becomes enchanted by such false love and forgets his real duty. When there are children as the result of such a combination, the next attraction is to the sweet words of the children.
The love of the woman at home and the talk of the children make one a secure prisoner, and thus he cannot leave his home. Such a person is termed, in Vedic language, a grhamedhi, which means “one whose center of attraction is home.” Grhastha refers to one who lives with family, wife and children, but whose real purpose of living is to develop Krsna consciousness. One is therefore advised to become a grhastha and not a grhamedhi. The grhastha’s concern is to get out of the family life created by illusion and enter into real family life with Krsna, whereas the grhamedhi s business is to repeatedly chain himself to so-called family life, in one life after another, and perpetually remain in the darkness of maya.
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Why there are so many ghostly people
===============================
Lord Siva, being very kind to the ghosts, sees that although they are condemned, they get physical bodies. He places them into the wombs of women who indulge in sexual intercourse regardless of the restrictions on time and circumstance.
Srila Prabhupada’s commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.14.24
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illusion Personified
===============================
“Sometimes the conditioned soul is attracted by illusion personified (his wife or girl friend) and becomes eager to be embraced by a woman. Thus he loses his intelligence as well as knowledge of life’s goal. At that time, no longer attempting spiritual cultivation, he becomes overly attached to his wife or girl friend and tries to provide her with a suitable apartment. Again, he becomes very busy under the shelter of that home and is captivated by the talks, glances and activities of his wife and children. In this way he loses his Krsna consciousness and throws himself in the dense darkness of material existence.”
==============================
Lord Chaitanya's Harinama Samkirtana Movement
Lord Chaitanya's "Harinama Samkirtana" movement is said to be something that has descended to us from Vaikuntha, the spiritual kingdom of God. After all, what are the activities of the residents of Vaiknutha? OK, they are ALL cent percent engaged in -- Harinama Samkirtana -- i.e. the residents of Vaikuntha are all singing (kirtana) the name of God (hari) in a congregation (sam) = samkirtana. That is basically what is going on there, constantly and eternally. The means -- all the activities there, such as talking, thinking, willing, feeling, moving, acting, singing etc. are all based on the principle of serving, praising (and singing to) -- God.
Thus, if we conditioned souls here in the material world ALSO engage in the same activities as the residents of Vaikuntha, we are -- at least theoretically -- also in Vaikuntha. In other words, if we behave like the residents of Vaikuntha, we are on our way there, or even, we are already there. The Christians have a somewhat similar idea, they also sing all kinds of hymns to God, the idea being, -- that is what the angels already living in heaven are all doing. So the Christians want to imitate the activities of the angels in heaven, and thus join in with the angels of heaven singing hymns in the Spiritual World with God. Its another form of the "Harinama Samkirtana" process.
Unfortunately, when the Harinama Samkirtan program of the residents of Krishna's planet is transported to this material world, there are all kinds of big problems. For starters, the material world is not going to receive this process with open arms. The residents of the material world are naturally averse to the glorification of God, and that is why the conditioned souls are here in the first place.
The Harinama process goes against the grain of material existence i.e. -- forgetfulness of God. All kinds of envious people will then come out of the woodwork to try and thwart the whole process of getting people engaged in serving God, and singing to God etc., since that breaks down the illusion of material existence and establishes people's original nature as God's servants. Of course, Jesus is an example of some of the types of problems that evolve when a fully spiritualized soul mixes with the ignorant materialized souls.
The duty of illusion or Maya, and / or her servants and agents, is to keep the conditioned souls captured, and so -- part of that process is to suppress the Harinama Samkirtana program. And since the material world is known as hellish place of forgetting God, how can we expect that the activities of the spiritual world are going to be allowed to be transferred here, and to prosper and grow here? We may find that the Harinama Samkirtana process is seen as a threat to the materialist's culture, and so it will be suppressed and compromised with material things -- to water it down and reduce its effect of saving the conditioned souls.
This is also related to our karma of course, if we have the karma of being citizens of Kali Yuga, that means we were not very God conscious and / or sincere in the first place. The main flow of the current of the conditioned energy (or Maya Shakti) in Kali Yuga is leading the whole society towards darkness, its flowing in the opposite direction of taking us to Vaikuntha. We'd have to swim very harder against this flow to make any progress. Understanding this extreme difficulty is why Lord Chaitanya makes the process easier for us in Kali Yuga. All we have to do is to remember Krishna, i.e. sing Harinama, or even just try to do that, and He will help us out here.
So, on the one hand, we've got bad karma -- its terrible for us to born be inside of this dark age of Kali Yuga, while on the other hand, if we lived in other epochs and eras, we might have to perform austerities for thousands of years to make any progress. Whatever happens in our Kali Yuga lives, at least we can take shelter of the nama of Krishna and we are immediately connected to His mercy. That is a real blessing to have, in any age, era, epoch, or within any place in the universe -- including this hellish place of planet earth during Kali Yuga. We think Aindra prabhu was in the process of trying to revive the Harinama Samkirtana process, and that is why he said "the powers that be" (the materially minded GBC) suppressed him.
Unfortunately, the Prabhupadanugas will probably have to try to re-establish the Harinama movement independent of these mundane ecclesiastical GBC guru folks. At the same time, we have to understand that our being in the middle of all sorts of people who want to suppress the glorification of God is due to our own previous conditioning, where we were ourselves suppressing the Harinama process for ourselves or others. So now its our karma to be with such sinful people, because, we were one of them ourselves. We are in the prison house of bad behaving prisoners, because we were bad behaving ourselves.
So we should now get very serious about connecting to Krishna -- and thus avoid having to deal with this type of "Harinama suppressing" situation again in our future lives. As we sang in church as a child, "when Jesus's train stops at your door, get on the train and do not let it go on without you." Right, because you may not get another train to stop at your door for another million years.
Most of our stalwart big leaders of ISKCON fell prey to material sex-life attraction and that has diverted them from the Harinama process. They jumped off the Vaikuntha train to get a few baubles of ill-gotten material wealth. Most of them ran back to material life. What is ironic is that most of these big GBC leaders like Hari Sauri, Jayatirtha, Hansadutta, Ramesvara, Bhagavan, Harikesha, Kirtanananda, and many similar others, they worked feverishly hard to make the Harinama Samkirtana movement useless and un-inhabitable for all of us. They criminalized those of us who wanted to chant the Harinama process, and basically spent 20 years burning down Lord Chaitanya's house.
Then, most of them just walked off from the burnt wreckage, because even they could not live in the house they had burnt to ashes themselves. They made Lord Chaitanya's movement un-inhabitable, even for themselves, even they could not live there anymore. So Srila Prabhupada warns, the responsibility of being a GBC is very great, and if its mis-used, the punishment is also very great. In other words, suppress Lord Chaitanya's movement -- at your peril. Its easy to see why -- anyone who suppresses the Lord's movement will be in severe trouble with the agents of the Lord.
Anyway, this material attraction problem is also what plagues various Christians, some of the Catholic Church's priests, various Hindu "gurus," big politicians, and so on and so forth, so thus this should serve as a warning sign to all of us. Here are a few quotes that we should also keep in mind when dealing with the material energy: ys pd
=================================
Sbject: Slavery : The cause of the material conditioned life : Attraction for the prison of family life
To:
===============================
Freedom and Slavery
===============================
A wretched person is one who cannot control his senses, whereas one who is not attached to sense gratification is a real controller. One who attaches himself to sense gratification is the opposite, a slave.
-Krishna, Srimad Bhagavatam 11.19.45
===============================
Attraction for the prison of family life
===============================
My dear Lord, we pray that we may never feel attraction for the prison of family life, consisting of home, wife, children, friends, bank balance, relatives and so on. If we do have some attachment, let it be for devotees, whose only dear friend is Krsna. A person who is actually self-realized and who has controlled his mind is perfectly satisfied with the bare necessities of life. He does not try to gratify his senses. Such a person quickly advances in Krsna consciousness, whereas others, who are too attached to material things, find advancement very difficult.
-Srimad Bhagavatam 5.18.10
===============================
The cause of the material conditioned life
===============================
“…attraction for woman’s association is the cause of the material conditional life, and anyone interested in being freed from this conditional life must detach himself from the association of women.”
(purport, Bhag. 3.31.35)
Simad Bhagavatam 5.5.8: The attraction between male and female is the basic principle of material existence. On the basis of this misconception, which ties together the hearts of the male and female, one becomes attracted to his body, home, property, children, relatives and wealth. In this way one increases life's illusions and thinks in terms of "I and mine."
===============================
http://www.brahmacarya.info/2010/07/cure-for-restlessness/
“To become restless in the contact of women and wealth is not an astonishment, because every living being is associated with such things from remote time, practically immemorial, and it takes time to recover from this foreign nature. But if one is engaged in hearing the glories of the Lord, gradually he realizes his real position. By the grace of God such a devotee gets sufficient strength to defend himself from the state of disturbances, and gradually all disturbing elements are eliminated from his mind.”
[SB 1.2.17]
===============================
The Way of Bondage
===============================
“When the mind is allowed to think of sense gratification continuously, it becomes the cause of our material bondage. If our mind is simply filled with sense gratification, even though we want Krsna consciousness, by continuous practice we cannot forget the subject matter of sense gratification. If one takes up the sannyasa order of life but is not able to control the mind, he will think of objects of sense gratification – namely family, society, expensive house, etc. Even though he goes to the Himalayas or the forest, his mind will continue thinking of the objects of sense gratification. In this way, gradually one’s intelligence will be affected. When intelligence is affected, one loses his original taste for Krsna consciousness.”
[SB 4.22.30]
===============================
The Charms of Maya
===============================
Srimad Bhagavatam (3.30.8)
He gives heart and senses to a woman, who falsely charms him with maya. He enjoys solitary embraces and talking with her, and he is enchanted by the sweet words of the small children.
Srila Prabhupada’s commentary:
Family life within the kingdom of illusory energy, maya, is just like a prison for the eternal living entity. In prison a prisoner is shackled by iron chains and iron bars. Similarly, a conditioned soul is shackled by the charming beauty of a woman, by her solitary embraces and talks of so-called love, and by the sweet words of his small children. Thus he forgets his real identity.
In this verse the words strinam asatinam indicate that womanly love is just to agitate the mind of man. Actually, in the material world there is no love. Both the woman and the man are interested in their sense gratification. For sense gratification a woman creates an illusory love, and the man becomes enchanted by such false love and forgets his real duty. When there are children as the result of such a combination, the next attraction is to the sweet words of the children.
The love of the woman at home and the talk of the children make one a secure prisoner, and thus he cannot leave his home. Such a person is termed, in Vedic language, a grhamedhi, which means “one whose center of attraction is home.” Grhastha refers to one who lives with family, wife and children, but whose real purpose of living is to develop Krsna consciousness. One is therefore advised to become a grhastha and not a grhamedhi. The grhastha’s concern is to get out of the family life created by illusion and enter into real family life with Krsna, whereas the grhamedhi s business is to repeatedly chain himself to so-called family life, in one life after another, and perpetually remain in the darkness of maya.
===============================
Why there are so many ghostly people
===============================
Lord Siva, being very kind to the ghosts, sees that although they are condemned, they get physical bodies. He places them into the wombs of women who indulge in sexual intercourse regardless of the restrictions on time and circumstance.
Srila Prabhupada’s commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 3.14.24
===============================
illusion Personified
===============================
“Sometimes the conditioned soul is attracted by illusion personified (his wife or girl friend) and becomes eager to be embraced by a woman. Thus he loses his intelligence as well as knowledge of life’s goal. At that time, no longer attempting spiritual cultivation, he becomes overly attached to his wife or girl friend and tries to provide her with a suitable apartment. Again, he becomes very busy under the shelter of that home and is captivated by the talks, glances and activities of his wife and children. In this way he loses his Krsna consciousness and throws himself in the dense darkness of material existence.”
==============================
Monday, May 26, 2014
Sunday, May 25, 2014
Mother of Varaha Mims Speaks Out
Maha Laxmi dd: Hare Krsna, all blessings to all the beautiful Vaisnava devotees of the Lord. I am praying that all devotees forgive me for not being a better inspiration to my son, Varaha.....so that he could have risen above an illness he has had to deal with, karmically. That illness is bipolar disorder.
.
My sincere prayer to all the devotees is that you have forgiveness for his behavior, as Raghu and Jagadhattri have forgiven him and are praying for his health. He is not a bad person, only brain chemistry wacked out. Then the alcohol, combined with knowing that he was no longer welcome at Raghu's, where he had been living for months. There is no excuse, but there are reasons that brought out the panic, the rage, and the violence. The deepest and most inexcusable "reason" is the alcohol.....no Vaisnava, particularly one who has taken the sacred vow of initiation, as my son had, should ever put their lips to alcohol. There is a reason it is referred to as "spirits". It brings in energies that are in the darker, darker regions, and forgetfulness of the beauty and love of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.
My heart is breaking for Raghu and his mother, my dear godsister Jagadhattri Devi. I thank Sri Radhey and Krsna that Raghu is alive, and on the mend....I don't know which pain is greater, that my son is in jail and has committed a heinious crime, or that when I think of the pain Jaggadhatri and her son are in..... And I don't like to sit and cry, so I push it out of my mind. Pain is not easy to live with..... Not that amends can ever be made, but in an effort to assist with repairs after my son's attack, I would like to encourage devotees from around the world to donate to help them.....either through Nipuna's campaign, which has already raised nearly $2000, or through New Life Society....I can wire the funds to them daily once they are received.
Damages to the two doors, which were kicked off the hinges, and a few windows....as well as whatever else has to be replaced/repaired, is easily in the thousands.. If anyone would be so gracious as to help the cause, you may do so by going to the website, www.newlifesocietycalifornia.org There is a paypal button, which you may donate through.
My gratitude for those of you who are willing and supportive to help in this tragic situation. All blessings to all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord, who are just like desire trees, fulfilling the desires of everyone, and who are full of compassion for all the fallen conditioned souls.http://newlifesocietycalifornia.org/stories-from-the-street/
======================================
.
My sincere prayer to all the devotees is that you have forgiveness for his behavior, as Raghu and Jagadhattri have forgiven him and are praying for his health. He is not a bad person, only brain chemistry wacked out. Then the alcohol, combined with knowing that he was no longer welcome at Raghu's, where he had been living for months. There is no excuse, but there are reasons that brought out the panic, the rage, and the violence. The deepest and most inexcusable "reason" is the alcohol.....no Vaisnava, particularly one who has taken the sacred vow of initiation, as my son had, should ever put their lips to alcohol. There is a reason it is referred to as "spirits". It brings in energies that are in the darker, darker regions, and forgetfulness of the beauty and love of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.
My heart is breaking for Raghu and his mother, my dear godsister Jagadhattri Devi. I thank Sri Radhey and Krsna that Raghu is alive, and on the mend....I don't know which pain is greater, that my son is in jail and has committed a heinious crime, or that when I think of the pain Jaggadhatri and her son are in..... And I don't like to sit and cry, so I push it out of my mind. Pain is not easy to live with..... Not that amends can ever be made, but in an effort to assist with repairs after my son's attack, I would like to encourage devotees from around the world to donate to help them.....either through Nipuna's campaign, which has already raised nearly $2000, or through New Life Society....I can wire the funds to them daily once they are received.
Damages to the two doors, which were kicked off the hinges, and a few windows....as well as whatever else has to be replaced/repaired, is easily in the thousands.. If anyone would be so gracious as to help the cause, you may do so by going to the website, www.newlifesocietycalifornia.org There is a paypal button, which you may donate through.
My gratitude for those of you who are willing and supportive to help in this tragic situation. All blessings to all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord, who are just like desire trees, fulfilling the desires of everyone, and who are full of compassion for all the fallen conditioned souls.http://newlifesocietycalifornia.org/stories-from-the-street/
======================================
Seven Tons of Original Books in UK
SEVEN MORE TONS
of Srila Prabhupada's
'Original Editions' have just arrived in The UK.
Please share this post to let everyone who prefers to distribute the "originals" know.
We now have a special service were we can ship a whole box (96 copies) of the pocket sized Gitas anywhere on mainland UK for only £10. That means you can have this beautiful little book for 83 pence each shipped, or for 73 pence each if you pick them up from us.
So many devotees have been buying them just to give away to friends, relatives, neighbours local shopkeepers the milkman etc etc.
They are unbelievably attractive. I will post some pictures soon for those that have not had the pleasure of seeing them before. When you hold one in your hand you know that they are going to cause a revolution in book distribution.
They are super easy to sell if you are a book distributor. People happily give £4/5 for them.
However, I have recently made an agreement with our local GBC man, Praghosa prabhu NOT TO SELL these books on temple property, or to any devotees that live in ISKCON Ashrams, nor to anyone employed by Iskcon or fully engaged in service to Iskcon.
Considering that still leaves about 64 million others in the UK who ARE allowed to purchase Srila Prabhupada's original and authorised editions, i I happily agreed to the proposal
Please do not be intimidated by those that believe it is fine to edit and re-edit and then re-edit again and again again.
KINDLY SHARE THIS POST to help protect Srila Prabhupada's written legacy
Your servant
Bhajahari das
Madhu Pandit das Corrects Misconceptions
[PADA: We are not exactly sure what the dispute is between Jaipur HKC and Akshaya Patra. What we do know for sure is -- the Jaipur HKC folks are citing the Jayapataka / Gopal Krishna / Radhanath court case as their authority. Oh great, the captain's of the bogus messiah's program are our source of info?
Sorry, none of the Prabhupadanugas accept such people as our authority. Then -- they said that Madhu Pandit das objects to Gauridas Pandit das, ok another clear mis-representation. Gauridas Pandit wrote a nice letter explaining that he is cooperating with Madhu Pandit Dasa, which is what we said all along. Unfortunately, as Madhu Pandit das has to explain below, some of the HKC folks are also citing more and more misconceptions being spread by the bogus guru -- as their authority. Perhaps that is the real root of this dispute?
Meanwhile the entire Prahlad / Janardan / etc al. group says that we are bogus because we do not accept the fact that the entire world, and ISKCON, is run by the NWO / CIA / Draco Constellation serpent demons / Illuminati / corporation worshiping / JEWISH BANKERS. Of course as soon as PADA says we should object to this Illuminati controlled corporation, especially because its a corrupt corporation, then the Prahlad / Janardan group are the first in line to say we are ruining their NWO / Illuminati controlled / Jewish bankers etc. owned CORPORATION, and in sum they complain we "destroying (corporate) ISKCON." So they are saying -- they are number one at defending corrupt corporations managed by the Illuminati.
Notice what they are saying!
(A) ISKCON is run by the Illumintati, the New World Order demons (the NWO), the Draco demons, the Jewish Bankers etc.
(B) SIMULTANEOUSLY they say -- ISKCON is "the pure golden body of Srila Prabhupada" which should not be criticized, and PADA is wrong to do that, because -- they worship corrupt institutions -- like the Illuminati does?
(C) They are giving contrary demands, which could not be followed by anyone, because their demands are mutually exclusive. Then they wonder why they get into conflicts with others? Because to start with, they are at war with themselves, they never even figured out what their position is in the first place.
Forsooth! PADA is ruining our wonderful (Illuminati controlled) ISKCON corporation! OK, they worship the deviant elite who run corrupt corporations, hey just like the Illuminati does. No wonder there is a dispute, they are citing the court case of (what they say is) the NWO's / Draco Constellation demon's / Illuminati's devotees as their authority. Sorry pal, we do not worship your Illuminati corporations. When will they EVER get this? I have to go take my percodans now, sheesh! ys pd]
[PADA NOTE: Yes, we saw that the followers of Radhanath are promoting the JFT folks writings, yep, they are helping the GBC guys, you got it. ys pd]
======================
From: Mahesh Raja <mahesh_agtsp@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Subject: Re: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Prabhu, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obiesances. Hare Krsna!
I thank-you very much for your quick reply. Please post the comments from mpd on the website. This email is also going to Mpd so he can read your comments and reply you on the disagreements at Jaipur Dayalu Nitai Prabhu and the HKC Jaipur devotees. I really do not know what the situation is between them - apart from some few internet exchanges. I have somewhat busy lifestyle so do not much keep in touch with others that often--and only thru email when time allows.
What you say is a FACT that Srila Prabhupada wants us all to cooperate. So I can NOT ignore Srila Prabhupada wishes on this. So this is what I personally want to do with all the Prabhupadanugas. Although sometimes it is very very difficult because of differences - I still keep trying because of this statements:
76-01-05. Letter: Satsvarupa
Everything should be done co-operatively. "Our" and "your's" are material conceptions and have no place in our Krishna Consciousness movement. If the members of our movement are unable to co-operate it will be very difficult to spread the mission of Lord Caitanya.
72-11-18. Letter: Madhumangala
Regarding general state of affairs at Amsterdam temple, I can understand there is some disturbance among you, but that is not to be taken very seriously. Real business is preaching work, and if there is full attention on this matter only, all other businesses will be automatically successful. Fighting amongst ourselves is not at all good, but if our preaching work is neglected, or if we fall down in following the regulative principles such as rising before four, chanting 16 rounds, like that, if these things are not strictly observed then maya will enter and spoil everything. So my best advice to you is to strictly observe these things yourself and be the example so that all others may follow. WE SHOULD NOT CRITICIZE EACH OTHER, AS VAISNAVAS, BECAUSE THERE IS FAULT IN EVERYONE AND WE MAY BE OURSELVES SUBJECT TO CRITICISM. BEST THING IS TO BE ABOVE SUSPICION OURSELVES, THEN IF WE SEE DISCREPANCIES AND MAKE SUGGESTION
THE OTHERS WILL AUTOMATICALLY RESPECT AND TAKE ACTION TO RECTIFY THE MATTERS. THAT IS COOPERATION. AND WE MUST EXIST ON SUCH COOPERATION, OTHERWISE THE WHOLE THING IS DOOMED IF WE SIMPLY GO ON FIGHTING OVER SOME SMALL THING. So try to organize things and preach together in this spirit, and that will please me very, very much.
Hope that all the issues will resolved among both sides by keeping Prabhupada focused on the matter.
Hare Krsna!
ys mahesh
===============================
From: "info@prabhupadanugas.eu" <info@prabhupadanugas.eu>
To: Mahesh Raja <mahesh_agtsp@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, 25 May 2014, 12:11
Subject: Re: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Hare Krishna dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Of course Madhu Pandit Prabhu or his communication staff is welcome to post comments on our website directly, or send them via e-mail to info@prabhupadanugas.eu for publishing. But no problem if you are sending it, Prabhu :) So do you want me to post this as comment by Madhu Pandit Prabhu? Please
clarify your wishes.
We at prabhupadanugas.eu are trying to keep our focus on Srila Prabhupada's instructions and not to be partial, as good as possible. But we also feel obliged to the truth. Please allow me some "personal notes" in this case: It is well known that prabhupadanugas.eu always appreciated Iskcon Bangalore and Madhu Pandit's work for Srila Prabhupada and promoted him for several years. But trust needs to be earned, and faith needs to be revived constantly.
If you are in direct contact with Madhu Pandit Prabhu, then please kindly ask him why he isn't able to communicate directly with Dayalu Nitai Prabhu and the HKC Jaipur devotees about their issue with Akshaya Patra Jaipur, and getting this problem finally solved, maybe in an Istagosthi as soon as possible? So many devotees are asking me the same.
I understand that Madhu Pandit Prabhu is a very busy devotee with brimful schedule, but his continued silence about this issue, or the silence by his communication department, makes the things even worse, in
my humble opinion. It would be so easy and fast for Madhu Pandit Prabhu to at least give a word of command to Akshaya Patra Jaipur, to stop the harrassments against HKC, if an Istagosthi meeting needs some more time by his side.
These devotees from Iskcon Bangalore, Hare Krishna Community Jaipur and Akshaya Patra Jaipur should be always able to openly communicate with each other. Apparently this "cold war" is going on for about five years now - unbelievable. It needs to get solved now as soon as possible.
If Madhu Pandit Prabhu and Dayalu Nitai Prabhu can solve this issue for mutual satisfaction, the Prabhupadanuga society well be also satisfied very much. And then we can join forces again to struggle against our real problems, because we only should have the common goal to only serve Srila Prabhupada as good as possible.
Hare Krishna
Your servant
webmaster prabhupadanugas.eu
Am 25.05.2014 11:19, schrieb Mahesh Raja:
Ram Bhakta Das :
>> In Para 70 the High Court has explained as follows : "Further, Madhupandit Das, his wife Bhakti Lata Devi Dasi, his co-brother Chanchalapati Das, his wife’s sister Chamari Devi Dasi and other close associates cooked up reports specifying the names of these persons as elected office bearers of plaintiff society and filed the same in the office of Registrar of Societies for the first time on 21.08.2001 for the entire period of 12 years from 1989 to 2001. As already stated these reports are cooked up for the purpose of giving life to the defunct plaintiff society."
Here is Reply from Madhupandit:
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Madhu Pandit Dasa<mpd@iskconbangalore.org>
To: Mahesh Raja
Subject: RE:http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Please correct them that it is a big fat lie that the Bangalore Property is owned by a trust owned by MPP’s family members. The property belongs to ISKCON Society registered in Bangalore in the year 1978, much before even I joined ISKCON. But ISKCON Society at Bangalore is legally separate from ISKCON Society registered in Bombay. The dispute is whether we are a branch of Bombay Society or ISKCON Bangalore is an independent society holding and managing the properties allotted to it by the government through its own governing body consisting of 10 members elected out of 23 temple presidents. So where is the family issue? It is just false propaganda by the gurus. Ys mpd
===========================================
Mahesh Raja says:
Mahesh: We all know that there is a BIG issue in terms of Prabhupadanugas in Jaipur because there are at least 3 temples fighting for a SMALL percentage of donors. And each one wants to say they are the best. So naturally there has been tension between them—and they speak against one another. Some one says Madhu Pandit is this another say something diffferent etc etc etc.
2) It is also A FACT in India High court Judges are BRIBED to give Judgements. HOW MUCH DID BOMBAY WALAS (ANTI RITVIK GOONS) PAY THE HIGH COURT JUDGE? Let is not forget the stake is HUGE Bangalore Temple.
Just look at the ANTI RITVIK goons history for MONEY SCREWING IN ISKCON. They want TO SCREW MONEY AT ALL LEVELS:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
3) Ram Bhakta Das: “Now this high court order has been challenged by MPP in the Supreme Court where the decision is awaiting.”
So let us ALL see what SUPREME COURT decides. For Madhu Pandit to take it up to the SUPREME COURT THERE MUST BE SOMETHING THAT HE HAS WHICH IS WORTH FOR THE JUDGE TO HEAR. Otherwise WHY would he go to the limit of SUPREME COURT?
To come back to the ORIGIN we want to see the ALL the temples in the hands of PRABHUPADANUGAS and NOT some bunch of ANTI RITVIK GOONS.
Sorry, none of the Prabhupadanugas accept such people as our authority. Then -- they said that Madhu Pandit das objects to Gauridas Pandit das, ok another clear mis-representation. Gauridas Pandit wrote a nice letter explaining that he is cooperating with Madhu Pandit Dasa, which is what we said all along. Unfortunately, as Madhu Pandit das has to explain below, some of the HKC folks are also citing more and more misconceptions being spread by the bogus guru -- as their authority. Perhaps that is the real root of this dispute?
Meanwhile the entire Prahlad / Janardan / etc al. group says that we are bogus because we do not accept the fact that the entire world, and ISKCON, is run by the NWO / CIA / Draco Constellation serpent demons / Illuminati / corporation worshiping / JEWISH BANKERS. Of course as soon as PADA says we should object to this Illuminati controlled corporation, especially because its a corrupt corporation, then the Prahlad / Janardan group are the first in line to say we are ruining their NWO / Illuminati controlled / Jewish bankers etc. owned CORPORATION, and in sum they complain we "destroying (corporate) ISKCON." So they are saying -- they are number one at defending corrupt corporations managed by the Illuminati.
Notice what they are saying!
(A) ISKCON is run by the Illumintati, the New World Order demons (the NWO), the Draco demons, the Jewish Bankers etc.
(B) SIMULTANEOUSLY they say -- ISKCON is "the pure golden body of Srila Prabhupada" which should not be criticized, and PADA is wrong to do that, because -- they worship corrupt institutions -- like the Illuminati does?
(C) They are giving contrary demands, which could not be followed by anyone, because their demands are mutually exclusive. Then they wonder why they get into conflicts with others? Because to start with, they are at war with themselves, they never even figured out what their position is in the first place.
Forsooth! PADA is ruining our wonderful (Illuminati controlled) ISKCON corporation! OK, they worship the deviant elite who run corrupt corporations, hey just like the Illuminati does. No wonder there is a dispute, they are citing the court case of (what they say is) the NWO's / Draco Constellation demon's / Illuminati's devotees as their authority. Sorry pal, we do not worship your Illuminati corporations. When will they EVER get this? I have to go take my percodans now, sheesh! ys pd]
[PADA NOTE: Yes, we saw that the followers of Radhanath are promoting the JFT folks writings, yep, they are helping the GBC guys, you got it. ys pd]
======================
From: Mahesh Raja <mahesh_agtsp@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Fw: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Subject: Re: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Prabhu, All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Please accept my humble obiesances. Hare Krsna!
I thank-you very much for your quick reply. Please post the comments from mpd on the website. This email is also going to Mpd so he can read your comments and reply you on the disagreements at Jaipur Dayalu Nitai Prabhu and the HKC Jaipur devotees. I really do not know what the situation is between them - apart from some few internet exchanges. I have somewhat busy lifestyle so do not much keep in touch with others that often--and only thru email when time allows.
What you say is a FACT that Srila Prabhupada wants us all to cooperate. So I can NOT ignore Srila Prabhupada wishes on this. So this is what I personally want to do with all the Prabhupadanugas. Although sometimes it is very very difficult because of differences - I still keep trying because of this statements:
76-01-05. Letter: Satsvarupa
Everything should be done co-operatively. "Our" and "your's" are material conceptions and have no place in our Krishna Consciousness movement. If the members of our movement are unable to co-operate it will be very difficult to spread the mission of Lord Caitanya.
72-11-18. Letter: Madhumangala
Regarding general state of affairs at Amsterdam temple, I can understand there is some disturbance among you, but that is not to be taken very seriously. Real business is preaching work, and if there is full attention on this matter only, all other businesses will be automatically successful. Fighting amongst ourselves is not at all good, but if our preaching work is neglected, or if we fall down in following the regulative principles such as rising before four, chanting 16 rounds, like that, if these things are not strictly observed then maya will enter and spoil everything. So my best advice to you is to strictly observe these things yourself and be the example so that all others may follow. WE SHOULD NOT CRITICIZE EACH OTHER, AS VAISNAVAS, BECAUSE THERE IS FAULT IN EVERYONE AND WE MAY BE OURSELVES SUBJECT TO CRITICISM. BEST THING IS TO BE ABOVE SUSPICION OURSELVES, THEN IF WE SEE DISCREPANCIES AND MAKE SUGGESTION
THE OTHERS WILL AUTOMATICALLY RESPECT AND TAKE ACTION TO RECTIFY THE MATTERS. THAT IS COOPERATION. AND WE MUST EXIST ON SUCH COOPERATION, OTHERWISE THE WHOLE THING IS DOOMED IF WE SIMPLY GO ON FIGHTING OVER SOME SMALL THING. So try to organize things and preach together in this spirit, and that will please me very, very much.
Hope that all the issues will resolved among both sides by keeping Prabhupada focused on the matter.
Hare Krsna!
ys mahesh
===============================
From: "info@prabhupadanugas.eu" <info@prabhupadanugas.eu>
To: Mahesh Raja <mahesh_agtsp@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Sunday, 25 May 2014, 12:11
Subject: Re: http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Hare Krishna dear Mahesh Raja Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Of course Madhu Pandit Prabhu or his communication staff is welcome to post comments on our website directly, or send them via e-mail to info@prabhupadanugas.eu for publishing. But no problem if you are sending it, Prabhu :) So do you want me to post this as comment by Madhu Pandit Prabhu? Please
clarify your wishes.
We at prabhupadanugas.eu are trying to keep our focus on Srila Prabhupada's instructions and not to be partial, as good as possible. But we also feel obliged to the truth. Please allow me some "personal notes" in this case: It is well known that prabhupadanugas.eu always appreciated Iskcon Bangalore and Madhu Pandit's work for Srila Prabhupada and promoted him for several years. But trust needs to be earned, and faith needs to be revived constantly.
If you are in direct contact with Madhu Pandit Prabhu, then please kindly ask him why he isn't able to communicate directly with Dayalu Nitai Prabhu and the HKC Jaipur devotees about their issue with Akshaya Patra Jaipur, and getting this problem finally solved, maybe in an Istagosthi as soon as possible? So many devotees are asking me the same.
I understand that Madhu Pandit Prabhu is a very busy devotee with brimful schedule, but his continued silence about this issue, or the silence by his communication department, makes the things even worse, in
my humble opinion. It would be so easy and fast for Madhu Pandit Prabhu to at least give a word of command to Akshaya Patra Jaipur, to stop the harrassments against HKC, if an Istagosthi meeting needs some more time by his side.
These devotees from Iskcon Bangalore, Hare Krishna Community Jaipur and Akshaya Patra Jaipur should be always able to openly communicate with each other. Apparently this "cold war" is going on for about five years now - unbelievable. It needs to get solved now as soon as possible.
If Madhu Pandit Prabhu and Dayalu Nitai Prabhu can solve this issue for mutual satisfaction, the Prabhupadanuga society well be also satisfied very much. And then we can join forces again to struggle against our real problems, because we only should have the common goal to only serve Srila Prabhupada as good as possible.
Hare Krishna
Your servant
webmaster prabhupadanugas.eu
Am 25.05.2014 11:19, schrieb Mahesh Raja:
Ram Bhakta Das :
>> In Para 70 the High Court has explained as follows : "Further, Madhupandit Das, his wife Bhakti Lata Devi Dasi, his co-brother Chanchalapati Das, his wife’s sister Chamari Devi Dasi and other close associates cooked up reports specifying the names of these persons as elected office bearers of plaintiff society and filed the same in the office of Registrar of Societies for the first time on 21.08.2001 for the entire period of 12 years from 1989 to 2001. As already stated these reports are cooked up for the purpose of giving life to the defunct plaintiff society."
Here is Reply from Madhupandit:
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Madhu Pandit Dasa<mpd@iskconbangalore.org>
To: Mahesh Raja
Subject: RE:http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=41313#comment-26533
Please correct them that it is a big fat lie that the Bangalore Property is owned by a trust owned by MPP’s family members. The property belongs to ISKCON Society registered in Bangalore in the year 1978, much before even I joined ISKCON. But ISKCON Society at Bangalore is legally separate from ISKCON Society registered in Bombay. The dispute is whether we are a branch of Bombay Society or ISKCON Bangalore is an independent society holding and managing the properties allotted to it by the government through its own governing body consisting of 10 members elected out of 23 temple presidents. So where is the family issue? It is just false propaganda by the gurus. Ys mpd
===========================================
Mahesh Raja says:
Ram Bhakta Das: Bangalore property belongs to a trust owned by MPP’s family members and not the branch of Iskcon. Now this high court order has been challenged by MPP in the Supreme court where the decision is awaiting.
Mahesh: We all know that there is a BIG issue in terms of Prabhupadanugas in Jaipur because there are at least 3 temples fighting for a SMALL percentage of donors. And each one wants to say they are the best. So naturally there has been tension between them—and they speak against one another. Some one says Madhu Pandit is this another say something diffferent etc etc etc.
The issue IS: Is Madhu Pandit PRO Ritvik or ANTI Ritvik? And is he going to PUT UP the FIGHT FOR RITVIK CAUSE to the END to fight the ANTI RITVIK GOONS? THAT is the ISSUE here.
1) What “branch of Iskcon” would that be? The BOMBAY (Anti Srila Prabhupada as Diksa Guru) Anti Ritvik bunch of CROOKS? And why would he want to just give them on a plate what they have worked hard for all the years to some ANTI RITVIK CROOKS? These goons have sided AGAINST SRILA PRABHUPADA AS OUR DIKSA GURU so WHY give them ANYTHING?
2) It is also A FACT in India High court Judges are BRIBED to give Judgements. HOW MUCH DID BOMBAY WALAS (ANTI RITVIK GOONS) PAY THE HIGH COURT JUDGE? Let is not forget the stake is HUGE Bangalore Temple.
Just look at the ANTI RITVIK goons history for MONEY SCREWING IN ISKCON. They want TO SCREW MONEY AT ALL LEVELS:
Bhaktivedanta Manor Accounts SALARIES
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/news/?p=38907#comment-24810
http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends49/0000259649_ac_20111231_e_c.pdf
3) Ram Bhakta Das: “Now this high court order has been challenged by MPP in the Supreme Court where the decision is awaiting.”
So let us ALL see what SUPREME COURT decides. For Madhu Pandit to take it up to the SUPREME COURT THERE MUST BE SOMETHING THAT HE HAS WHICH IS WORTH FOR THE JUDGE TO HEAR. Otherwise WHY would he go to the limit of SUPREME COURT?
To come back to the ORIGIN we want to see the ALL the temples in the hands of PRABHUPADANUGAS and NOT some bunch of ANTI RITVIK GOONS.
Saturday, May 24, 2014
Conversation: How To Fix ISKCON?
Pratyatosa: Gopal Bhatta Das says -- Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books. If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
Dear Gopal Bhatta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Thank you very much for your valuable comments.
But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades. They are obviously just pretending because real gurus do not fall down, and real gurus are not subject to the dictates of a "GBC." So, let them continue pretending, but the GBC body itself should stop forcing all of ISKCON to live a lie (like they have been doing ever since early 1978).
Therefore, the GBC should:
1. Admit that they, as a body, ignored part of Srila Prabhupada’s 1970 DOM order (the part which states that TPs should vote devotees on and off of the GBC body).
2. Point out that Srila Prabhupada did not condemn them for this, and neither did a vast majority of the devotees.
3. Admit that they ignored Srila Prabhupada’s July 9, 1977 "ritvik henceforward" order, and beg the devotees to be merciful, to follow Srila Prabhupada’s example, and to not condemn them for this either.
4. Allow the current “gurus” to go on being “gurus.”
5. Not approve any new “gurus.”
6. Begin approving “ritvik representatives of the Acharya,” as Srila Prabhupada clearly prescribed in his July 9th letter.
7. Allow the “gurus” to request that their “guruship” positions be switched to ritviks, subject to GBC approval on an individual basis.
8. Allow the “gurus” to give up their “guruship” positions in exchange for a “golden parachute.” (Guaranteed retirement benefits for life.)
9. Order all TPs to, from now on, recommend qualified new bhaktas and bhaktins for initiation, and to request whichever ritvik is nearest to come and perform the ceremony.
In my humble opinion, if the above 9 points were actually carried out by the GBC body, it would satisfy most of the Ritviks and most of the ISKCONites as well.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
==============================
Gopal Bhatta Das says: @”But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades”
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Basically it is happening already, gradually, step by step. Cause of the delay is that ISKCON’s original rank&file was completely replaced with those who support fallen gurus.
If we look inside of ISKCON there are presently 70% Indians, 10% Russians, 19% Asians and 1% Westerners. So these devotees who improve materially by joining ISKCON naturally fight like mad not to have anything changed.
So far ISKCONites only learn when there is damage.
Prabhupada: “Of all the processes for receiving knowledge, the least reliable is direct sense perception.” In other words, we have to be patient, unless there are events of damage or loss -- direct sense perception -- GBC won’t change anything. On the other hand the Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any idea?
ys Gopal Bhatta Das
================================
Praghosa Das says:
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu
Obeisances. all glories to Srila Prabhupada
You write: “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same. Same with my comments in 2005. I rely upon Srila Prabhupada’s own simple definition of the term: one who is singled out from amongst his happy servants and “selected, empowered and authorized” by him or his representatives -- to act “on behalf of Srila Prabhupada” as guru and assume full responsibility in the matter of who can and cannot be accepted as a bonafide initiated disciple in Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON mission.
This is the publicly recorded arrangement of Srila Prabhupada. Beginning with his conversations on May 27th and then the 28th -- he informed us as to what he planned to do. Then -- in June he did it and in July he informed us all what he did.
Once again -- for no apparent reason you again try to slight me. This time with the above pithy nonsense:
“”Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)”
But it’s not “GBC / TP / Ritvik Acharya.” It’s “GBC / TP/ Ritvik representative of the Acharya,” or simply “GBC / TP / Ritvik.” On May 28, 1977, when Tamal Krishna asked “Is that called ritvik-acharya?” Srila Prabhupada immediately corrected him and stated that the correct terminology is simply “ritvik.” 1½ months later, in his July 9, 1977 directive to all GBC men/temple presidents, Prabhupada further refined the terminology to “ritvik representative of the Acharya.” After that, he never again changed the terminology.
You again take liberties with what is said and give your meaning or interpretation to what is being said or was said by someone. In this case Srila Prabhupada. He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming.
The word ritvik means empowered representative. TKG used term ritvik. Ritivik was not a word known to anyone at that time. There had been conversations on the subject initiated by Srila Prabhupada during that period and according to Gauri Das Pandit prabhu -- this was the only reason TKG even knew of the term to ask about it.
ISKCON has ALWAYS worked with the only realistic system that could work within the context of a formal worldwide mission if it was to the sanctity and importance of its 7 (stated) Purposes: ie a system that insisted those acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf -- as his agents -- were sworn to his Oath of Allegiance and committed to working hand and glove with HIS Governing Body. This is the very essence of the true meaning of “ritivik representative” or “officiating acharya”.
I will waste no more time haggling with you over the terms or how they are placed. Ritivik Representative does not mean Priest in the context of Srila Prabhupada’s arrangements. The priest is the one who lights the fire and performs the ceremony The Ritivik Acharya takes personal responsibility in determining the legitimacy of a man’s professed “sincerity”. He is authorized to chant upon the man’s beads FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA.
He is responsible for eliciting this man’s commitment to reciting with reverence and affection -- at least 16 rounds of the Lord’s Holy Name and to abide by the simple 4 proscriptions to which we are all familiar. He gives the initiate his new name. He himself -- (many do not realize this) is held accountable to Srila Prabhupada -- IF he -- the ritvik acharya -- fails to do all in his power to ensure the disicple’s LIFELONG commitment to these simple actions. He is doing all this on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. BUT HE -- is doing that. His doing so -- on behalf of Srila Prabhupada -- does not mean he is not actually doing this. Anymore than a mother’s doing all she does -- on behalf of the father -- means actually the father is doing everything.
“For the book distributors to go on strike is just one possibility to motivate the GBC to finally come clean and start telling the truth. Another possibility would be for Ambarish Prabhu to temporarily stop giving any money. Another possibility is for the Supreme Court of India to get on their case.”
This is all mundane conception. As if who gains or loses money is or even should be factored in as a means to resolve this issue. Were that the case -- then the 30 million and counting that has been already lost -- would have long ago served to move people back to the correct and simple solution.
You have not distributed any books in years. So technically -- you have been on the very strike you call for.
The BBT has botched things themselves. The GBC has botched that also. And most of us who were hard core book distributors -- also got married and were forced to do other than full time daily direct book distribution. To me -- in the end -- this is all of us -- in one way or the other -- going on strike so to speak. The only real reason books were ever distributed in the mass quantities of that period -- was because Srila Prabhupada wanted it to be done -- and most of us in ISKCON at that time -- took his desire as our own -- and WANTED to do that.
After he left us -- each of us -- in our own way -- chose or were obliged -- to do something else. We all essentially -- went on strike. all that without any formal declaration of intent as you suggest. Now -- how has the above mentioned “strike” worked out for us? For Iskcon? In resolving this tenaciously contentious “guru issue”? Ahh…. I believe we all have an answer or two for that one.
“For their own good, the GBC has got to realize that the truth always wins out in the end, and that the longer they delay the inevitable, the more that they are going to have to suffer. Do they want to do down in history as the biggest fools/rascals in the history of Vaisnavism, or what?”
As I said -- the whole thing could be easily resolved within perhaps 1 Hour -- if all parties at the table are honest and sincere. From the day Srila Prabhupada “selected” some men -- to the exclusion of all other disciples -- we have had the exact system he left us. There are now some 10-12 thousand men and women whose initiating ritivik acharya himself -- either retired or fell away -- and the bulk of these men and women -- never saw it necessary to again search out another to RE- initiate them. Neither has any ISKCON leader of note -- insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position.
Why not stop with the subtle slights you keep tossing my way and initiate a direct discussion that can bring about full resolution to this ultimately simple problem?
=======================================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: …Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any ideas?
The Prabhupadanugas are united behind the fact that the July 9, 1977 letter clearly prescribes “ritvik henceforward” for all future initiations within ISKCON, and that’s all that really matters. If a majority of the GBC could be persuaded to admit that the Prabhupadanugas are right about this one point, and a GBC resolution to that effect succeeded in getting passed, then it should be downhill from that point on.
Ambarish Prabhu has recently expressed sympathy for the cause of the ISKCON Bangalore devotees. (See Ambarish Das writes to GBC on ISKCON-Bangalore dispute.) If you, Ambarish Prabhu, and Madhu Pandit Prabhu, would get together and put pressure on the GBC to admit that they, as a body, decided, at the Mayapur meetings in 1978, to simply ignore the July 9th letter, then it would be a great step forward.
Perhaps Naveen Krishna Prabhu still has some influence on Ambarish. Bhusaya Prabhu and his wife, Mother Lekhasravanti Prabhu (the daughter of world famous labor leader Walter Reuther), could also potentially influence him in the right direction.
If we all agree to give the GBC “immunity from prosecution,” perhaps they could be persuaded to finally come clean and admit to the truth. Then ISKCON would no longer be living a lie, and this first step could potentially lead to putting an end to the millions of dollars being wasted on legal fees! It could also potentially generate a lot of good publicity for ISKCON and for Srila Prabhupada’s glorious “Hare Krishna Movement.”
What do you think, Prabhu?
==============================
one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Praghosa das said "Neither has any ISKCON leader of note — insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position."
NOT TRUE!!!
After the fall down of Probably Vishnu swami at the next GBC meeting in Mayapur, Jayapataka maharaja brought up this very thing, saying that PV’s disciples had to be re-initiated -- so that they could be connected to a “living guru” (as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada?????). So re-initiation may not be as openly promoted as in the past -- but IT IS PROMOTED behind closed doors and it appears to be alive and well.
In regards to book dist. i’m of the same opinion as Gopal Bhatta. I’m very careful,very,very careful who I give a book to (unchanged of course). In the end more likely than not the recipient will go to a iskcon center and then become deceived and mislead (the old iskcon change up, remember?). Then more than likely, like Gopal Bhatta said they will then “bloop” and go away discouraged and burned out. I have seen it happen. One that I still see in the stores once in awhile has turned into a atheist!
I refuse to be part of this bait and switch game that the gbc/gurus/tp’s and iskcon is playing.
yhs,ofs.
================================
Shubham says: one FALLEN SOUL SAYS:”as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada”
This shows two points. You are not Krsna conscious even initially because soul never dies. And Acharyas are liberated souls. They guide us forever. it is very serious offense to Guru. This is what iskcon has created. Simply blaspheming indirectly or directly.
===================================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Praghosa Das says: You write : “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-) ” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same.
NOT TRUE!!!
1. In “the essay you cited in your original questions to myself” (early 1998, not 1999), you don’t use the word “ritvik” even once!
2. On this website, you never used the word “ritvik” even once until I pointed out to everyone, “But of course, since you want to continue to associate with members of ISKCON, you are not allowed to even say the word ‘ritvik! This is obviously because, according to those offensive ISKCON ritvik-bashers, who are actually far worse association than karmis, Srila Prabhupada’s own terminology is a dirty word! Then you accepted the “dare” and immediately used the word for the first time just to prove me wrong! :-)
================================
one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Shubham.
Obviously you didn’t get the sarcasm. That is how the iskcon vapuvadis think of Srila Prabhupada, dead. Allegedly Jps made the now famous statement (when referring to Srila Prabhupada and his still being able to still give diksa) that “dead men don’t have sons”.
I’m a Prabhupada disciple and would never say anything as offensive as that about my guru maharaja, although that is how present day iskcon thinks of HDG. They (and you???) are vapuvadis.
===========================
Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
In response to Gopal Bhatta Prabhu’s insightful remarks, I was inspired to write comments then re-published twice under the title, “How to fix ISKCON in 9 easy steps,” the ensuing discussion of which might also be of interest:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/istagosthi/wgBBef2ePOk
==================================
Mahesh Raja says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
Mahesh: The ONLY WAY to FIX it is THE Srila Prabhupada way: EXPOSE THE JACKALS:
730503mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: No, it is Sanskrit. And in Bengal it is called vane asiya raja.(?) “In the forest a jackal has become king.” They are like that. Nila-varna-srigalavat.(?) When… There is big story about this jackal. I will tell you some. A jackal came in the village and he fell in the tub where, what is called, the water? No, no. The water man keeps the water for dipping, making little bluish. For coloring.
That blue, blue. So the washerman kept the dye water in a big tub, and the jackal fell in it. So jackal fell in it; he became blue, all blue. So he fled away, and all the animals said, “What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?” All, even lion became surprised. “We have not seen this.” “So who are you, sir?” “I AM SENT BY GOD TO RULE OVER YOU.” “OH?” SO THEY BEGAN TO WORSHIP HIM AS GOD, AS LEADER. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, “Wa, wa,” but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to “Wa, wa.” Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yavat kincin na bhasate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense.
We can detect that “Here is a jackal.” SO WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THEM. THEY ARE NOT LEADER; THEY ARE JACKALS. SO JACKALS CANNOT ANYMORE RULE OVER. THAT SHOULD BE OUR PROPAGANDA. NOT ONLY SCIENTIFIC, ALL POLITICAL THINGS, SOCIAL THINGS, EVERYTHING. THEY SHOULD BE ALL KICKED OUT. THEY SHOULD BE REPLACED BY KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN PEOPLE WILL BE HAPPY. THIS SHOULD BE OUR PROGRAM.
Our, this propaganda means to make people happy. It is not a business, to make business and take some money. And so many jackals have been arrested and resigned in your… You know that? Many jackals have been obliged to resign their post in the government.
============================
PD says:
You can download Aindra’s book for free from http://www.Krishnapath.org/aindras-book-the-heart-of-transcendental-book-distribution in both PDF ePub and the AudioBook
===============================
Bhakta Joe says:
Praghosa says:
“He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming. The word ritvik means empowered representative.”
1) If he was confirming as claimed by Praghosa, then he would have agreed by saying, ““Yes Ritivik acharya”. However the fact is recorded as “Yes Ritivik”. Thus a change in terminology, thus a correction.
(btw: There is no such thing as Ritivik acharya)
2) The word ‘ritvik’ (meaning priest) can be referenced in Srila Prabhupada’s books, the use of ritvik priests to assist in ceremonies is a concept fully sanctioned in Srila Prabhupada’s books:
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 . (all these references are from the Srimad-Bhagavatam)
There is no such reference which means, “empowered representative,” as claimed by Praghosa.
=================================
Janaka Das says:
Aindra’s book ‘The Heart of Transcendental Book Distribution’ can be found here:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/documents/The_Heart_of_Transcendental_Book_Distribution_Aindra.pdf
Dear Gopal Bhatta Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Thank you very much for your valuable comments.
But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades. They are obviously just pretending because real gurus do not fall down, and real gurus are not subject to the dictates of a "GBC." So, let them continue pretending, but the GBC body itself should stop forcing all of ISKCON to live a lie (like they have been doing ever since early 1978).
Therefore, the GBC should:
1. Admit that they, as a body, ignored part of Srila Prabhupada’s 1970 DOM order (the part which states that TPs should vote devotees on and off of the GBC body).
2. Point out that Srila Prabhupada did not condemn them for this, and neither did a vast majority of the devotees.
3. Admit that they ignored Srila Prabhupada’s July 9, 1977 "ritvik henceforward" order, and beg the devotees to be merciful, to follow Srila Prabhupada’s example, and to not condemn them for this either.
4. Allow the current “gurus” to go on being “gurus.”
5. Not approve any new “gurus.”
6. Begin approving “ritvik representatives of the Acharya,” as Srila Prabhupada clearly prescribed in his July 9th letter.
7. Allow the “gurus” to request that their “guruship” positions be switched to ritviks, subject to GBC approval on an individual basis.
8. Allow the “gurus” to give up their “guruship” positions in exchange for a “golden parachute.” (Guaranteed retirement benefits for life.)
9. Order all TPs to, from now on, recommend qualified new bhaktas and bhaktins for initiation, and to request whichever ritvik is nearest to come and perform the ceremony.
In my humble opinion, if the above 9 points were actually carried out by the GBC body, it would satisfy most of the Ritviks and most of the ISKCONites as well.
Your servant, Pratyatosa Dasa
==============================
Gopal Bhatta Das says: @”But how do we “FIX ISKCON?” Many of the current pretender gurus are obviously very attached to their charades”
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu, PAMHO. AGTSP!
Basically it is happening already, gradually, step by step. Cause of the delay is that ISKCON’s original rank&file was completely replaced with those who support fallen gurus.
If we look inside of ISKCON there are presently 70% Indians, 10% Russians, 19% Asians and 1% Westerners. So these devotees who improve materially by joining ISKCON naturally fight like mad not to have anything changed.
So far ISKCONites only learn when there is damage.
Prabhupada: “Of all the processes for receiving knowledge, the least reliable is direct sense perception.” In other words, we have to be patient, unless there are events of damage or loss -- direct sense perception -- GBC won’t change anything. On the other hand the Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any idea?
ys Gopal Bhatta Das
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Praghosa Das says:
Dear Pratyatosa Prabhu
Obeisances. all glories to Srila Prabhupada
You write: “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same. Same with my comments in 2005. I rely upon Srila Prabhupada’s own simple definition of the term: one who is singled out from amongst his happy servants and “selected, empowered and authorized” by him or his representatives -- to act “on behalf of Srila Prabhupada” as guru and assume full responsibility in the matter of who can and cannot be accepted as a bonafide initiated disciple in Srila Prabhupada’s ISKCON mission.
This is the publicly recorded arrangement of Srila Prabhupada. Beginning with his conversations on May 27th and then the 28th -- he informed us as to what he planned to do. Then -- in June he did it and in July he informed us all what he did.
Once again -- for no apparent reason you again try to slight me. This time with the above pithy nonsense:
“”Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-)”
But it’s not “GBC / TP / Ritvik Acharya.” It’s “GBC / TP/ Ritvik representative of the Acharya,” or simply “GBC / TP / Ritvik.” On May 28, 1977, when Tamal Krishna asked “Is that called ritvik-acharya?” Srila Prabhupada immediately corrected him and stated that the correct terminology is simply “ritvik.” 1½ months later, in his July 9, 1977 directive to all GBC men/temple presidents, Prabhupada further refined the terminology to “ritvik representative of the Acharya.” After that, he never again changed the terminology.
You again take liberties with what is said and give your meaning or interpretation to what is being said or was said by someone. In this case Srila Prabhupada. He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming.
The word ritvik means empowered representative. TKG used term ritvik. Ritivik was not a word known to anyone at that time. There had been conversations on the subject initiated by Srila Prabhupada during that period and according to Gauri Das Pandit prabhu -- this was the only reason TKG even knew of the term to ask about it.
ISKCON has ALWAYS worked with the only realistic system that could work within the context of a formal worldwide mission if it was to the sanctity and importance of its 7 (stated) Purposes: ie a system that insisted those acting on Srila Prabhupada’s behalf -- as his agents -- were sworn to his Oath of Allegiance and committed to working hand and glove with HIS Governing Body. This is the very essence of the true meaning of “ritivik representative” or “officiating acharya”.
I will waste no more time haggling with you over the terms or how they are placed. Ritivik Representative does not mean Priest in the context of Srila Prabhupada’s arrangements. The priest is the one who lights the fire and performs the ceremony The Ritivik Acharya takes personal responsibility in determining the legitimacy of a man’s professed “sincerity”. He is authorized to chant upon the man’s beads FOR SRILA PRABHUPADA.
He is responsible for eliciting this man’s commitment to reciting with reverence and affection -- at least 16 rounds of the Lord’s Holy Name and to abide by the simple 4 proscriptions to which we are all familiar. He gives the initiate his new name. He himself -- (many do not realize this) is held accountable to Srila Prabhupada -- IF he -- the ritvik acharya -- fails to do all in his power to ensure the disicple’s LIFELONG commitment to these simple actions. He is doing all this on behalf of Srila Prabhupada. BUT HE -- is doing that. His doing so -- on behalf of Srila Prabhupada -- does not mean he is not actually doing this. Anymore than a mother’s doing all she does -- on behalf of the father -- means actually the father is doing everything.
“For the book distributors to go on strike is just one possibility to motivate the GBC to finally come clean and start telling the truth. Another possibility would be for Ambarish Prabhu to temporarily stop giving any money. Another possibility is for the Supreme Court of India to get on their case.”
This is all mundane conception. As if who gains or loses money is or even should be factored in as a means to resolve this issue. Were that the case -- then the 30 million and counting that has been already lost -- would have long ago served to move people back to the correct and simple solution.
You have not distributed any books in years. So technically -- you have been on the very strike you call for.
The BBT has botched things themselves. The GBC has botched that also. And most of us who were hard core book distributors -- also got married and were forced to do other than full time daily direct book distribution. To me -- in the end -- this is all of us -- in one way or the other -- going on strike so to speak. The only real reason books were ever distributed in the mass quantities of that period -- was because Srila Prabhupada wanted it to be done -- and most of us in ISKCON at that time -- took his desire as our own -- and WANTED to do that.
After he left us -- each of us -- in our own way -- chose or were obliged -- to do something else. We all essentially -- went on strike. all that without any formal declaration of intent as you suggest. Now -- how has the above mentioned “strike” worked out for us? For Iskcon? In resolving this tenaciously contentious “guru issue”? Ahh…. I believe we all have an answer or two for that one.
“For their own good, the GBC has got to realize that the truth always wins out in the end, and that the longer they delay the inevitable, the more that they are going to have to suffer. Do they want to do down in history as the biggest fools/rascals in the history of Vaisnavism, or what?”
As I said -- the whole thing could be easily resolved within perhaps 1 Hour -- if all parties at the table are honest and sincere. From the day Srila Prabhupada “selected” some men -- to the exclusion of all other disciples -- we have had the exact system he left us. There are now some 10-12 thousand men and women whose initiating ritivik acharya himself -- either retired or fell away -- and the bulk of these men and women -- never saw it necessary to again search out another to RE- initiate them. Neither has any ISKCON leader of note -- insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position.
Why not stop with the subtle slights you keep tossing my way and initiate a direct discussion that can bring about full resolution to this ultimately simple problem?
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Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: …Prabhupadanugas should give a better example of unity. ISKCONites immediately say, Prabhupadanugas, these are the most disunited devotees? Any ideas?
The Prabhupadanugas are united behind the fact that the July 9, 1977 letter clearly prescribes “ritvik henceforward” for all future initiations within ISKCON, and that’s all that really matters. If a majority of the GBC could be persuaded to admit that the Prabhupadanugas are right about this one point, and a GBC resolution to that effect succeeded in getting passed, then it should be downhill from that point on.
Ambarish Prabhu has recently expressed sympathy for the cause of the ISKCON Bangalore devotees. (See Ambarish Das writes to GBC on ISKCON-Bangalore dispute.) If you, Ambarish Prabhu, and Madhu Pandit Prabhu, would get together and put pressure on the GBC to admit that they, as a body, decided, at the Mayapur meetings in 1978, to simply ignore the July 9th letter, then it would be a great step forward.
Perhaps Naveen Krishna Prabhu still has some influence on Ambarish. Bhusaya Prabhu and his wife, Mother Lekhasravanti Prabhu (the daughter of world famous labor leader Walter Reuther), could also potentially influence him in the right direction.
If we all agree to give the GBC “immunity from prosecution,” perhaps they could be persuaded to finally come clean and admit to the truth. Then ISKCON would no longer be living a lie, and this first step could potentially lead to putting an end to the millions of dollars being wasted on legal fees! It could also potentially generate a lot of good publicity for ISKCON and for Srila Prabhupada’s glorious “Hare Krishna Movement.”
What do you think, Prabhu?
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one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Praghosa das said "Neither has any ISKCON leader of note — insisted that they must do this. Even some of ISKCON’S present GBC members fall within this category and no pressure I am aware of has been directed towards them for taking this position."
NOT TRUE!!!
After the fall down of Probably Vishnu swami at the next GBC meeting in Mayapur, Jayapataka maharaja brought up this very thing, saying that PV’s disciples had to be re-initiated -- so that they could be connected to a “living guru” (as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada?????). So re-initiation may not be as openly promoted as in the past -- but IT IS PROMOTED behind closed doors and it appears to be alive and well.
In regards to book dist. i’m of the same opinion as Gopal Bhatta. I’m very careful,very,very careful who I give a book to (unchanged of course). In the end more likely than not the recipient will go to a iskcon center and then become deceived and mislead (the old iskcon change up, remember?). Then more than likely, like Gopal Bhatta said they will then “bloop” and go away discouraged and burned out. I have seen it happen. One that I still see in the stores once in awhile has turned into a atheist!
I refuse to be part of this bait and switch game that the gbc/gurus/tp’s and iskcon is playing.
yhs,ofs.
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Shubham says: one FALLEN SOUL SAYS:”as oppose to a dead one like Srila Prabhupada”
This shows two points. You are not Krsna conscious even initially because soul never dies. And Acharyas are liberated souls. They guide us forever. it is very serious offense to Guru. This is what iskcon has created. Simply blaspheming indirectly or directly.
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Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Praghosa Das says: You write : “Great! We finally got you to say the word, “ritvik.” I didn’t think you had it in you. :-) ” You seem a bit confused prabhu. and a bit dodgy as well. I have employed this term in every instance of recorded comment from myself since way back in my first effort in 1995 between myself and HH TKG. The essay you cited in your original questions to myself (1999) found me doing the same.
NOT TRUE!!!
1. In “the essay you cited in your original questions to myself” (early 1998, not 1999), you don’t use the word “ritvik” even once!
2. On this website, you never used the word “ritvik” even once until I pointed out to everyone, “But of course, since you want to continue to associate with members of ISKCON, you are not allowed to even say the word ‘ritvik! This is obviously because, according to those offensive ISKCON ritvik-bashers, who are actually far worse association than karmis, Srila Prabhupada’s own terminology is a dirty word! Then you accepted the “dare” and immediately used the word for the first time just to prove me wrong! :-)
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one fallen soul says:
Hari bol.
Shubham.
Obviously you didn’t get the sarcasm. That is how the iskcon vapuvadis think of Srila Prabhupada, dead. Allegedly Jps made the now famous statement (when referring to Srila Prabhupada and his still being able to still give diksa) that “dead men don’t have sons”.
I’m a Prabhupada disciple and would never say anything as offensive as that about my guru maharaja, although that is how present day iskcon thinks of HDG. They (and you???) are vapuvadis.
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Pratyatosa Dasa (ACBSP) says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
In response to Gopal Bhatta Prabhu’s insightful remarks, I was inspired to write comments then re-published twice under the title, “How to fix ISKCON in 9 easy steps,” the ensuing discussion of which might also be of interest:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/istagosthi/wgBBef2ePOk
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Mahesh Raja says:
Gopal Bhatta Das says: Srila Prabhupada promotes ISKCON throughout his books…If ISKCON is deviating, you cannot promote it, nor can you ignore it, you have to FIX it.
Mahesh: The ONLY WAY to FIX it is THE Srila Prabhupada way: EXPOSE THE JACKALS:
730503mw.la Conversations
Prabhupada: No, it is Sanskrit. And in Bengal it is called vane asiya raja.(?) “In the forest a jackal has become king.” They are like that. Nila-varna-srigalavat.(?) When… There is big story about this jackal. I will tell you some. A jackal came in the village and he fell in the tub where, what is called, the water? No, no. The water man keeps the water for dipping, making little bluish. For coloring.
That blue, blue. So the washerman kept the dye water in a big tub, and the jackal fell in it. So jackal fell in it; he became blue, all blue. So he fled away, and all the animals said, “What is this animal? What is the animal? What is that animal? Oh?” All, even lion became surprised. “We have not seen this.” “So who are you, sir?” “I AM SENT BY GOD TO RULE OVER YOU.” “OH?” SO THEY BEGAN TO WORSHIP HIM AS GOD, AS LEADER. Then one day other jackals, they were crying, “Wa, wa,” but the jackals cannot stop. If others jackals cry, the jackal cannot stop. So he also began to “Wa, wa.” Oh, then, they, oh, this rascal is a jackal. Yavat kincin na bhasate. That these rascals are jackals. Now they are talking nonsense.
We can detect that “Here is a jackal.” SO WE HAVE TO EXPOSE THEM. THEY ARE NOT LEADER; THEY ARE JACKALS. SO JACKALS CANNOT ANYMORE RULE OVER. THAT SHOULD BE OUR PROPAGANDA. NOT ONLY SCIENTIFIC, ALL POLITICAL THINGS, SOCIAL THINGS, EVERYTHING. THEY SHOULD BE ALL KICKED OUT. THEY SHOULD BE REPLACED BY KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS. THEN PEOPLE WILL BE HAPPY. THIS SHOULD BE OUR PROGRAM.
Our, this propaganda means to make people happy. It is not a business, to make business and take some money. And so many jackals have been arrested and resigned in your… You know that? Many jackals have been obliged to resign their post in the government.
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PD says:
You can download Aindra’s book for free from http://www.Krishnapath.org/aindras-book-the-heart-of-transcendental-book-distribution in both PDF ePub and the AudioBook
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Bhakta Joe says:
Praghosa says:
“He did not correct TKG when TKG asked “is that called ritivik acharya. He answered in the affirmative “Yes Ritivik”. He was not correcting. He was confirming. The word ritvik means empowered representative.”
1) If he was confirming as claimed by Praghosa, then he would have agreed by saying, ““Yes Ritivik acharya”. However the fact is recorded as “Yes Ritivik”. Thus a change in terminology, thus a correction.
(btw: There is no such thing as Ritivik acharya)
2) The word ‘ritvik’ (meaning priest) can be referenced in Srila Prabhupada’s books, the use of ritvik priests to assist in ceremonies is a concept fully sanctioned in Srila Prabhupada’s books:
Ritvik : 4.6.1 / 4.7.16 / 5.3.2 / 5.3.3 / 5.4.17 / 7.3.30 / 8.20.22 / 9.1.15 .
Rtvijah : 4.5.7 / 4.5.18 / 4.7.27 / 4.7.45 / 4.13.26 / 4.19.27 / 4.19.29 / 5.3.4 / 5.3.15 / 5.3.18 / 5.7.5 / 8.16.53 / 8.18.21 / 8.18.22 / 9.4.23 / 9.6.35 .
Rtvijam : 4.6.52 / 4.21.5 / 8.23.13 / 9.13.1 .
Rtvigbhyah : 8.16.55 .
Rtvigbhih : 4.7.56 / 9.13.3 . (all these references are from the Srimad-Bhagavatam)
There is no such reference which means, “empowered representative,” as claimed by Praghosa.
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Janaka Das says:
Aindra’s book ‘The Heart of Transcendental Book Distribution’ can be found here:
http://www.iskcon-truth.com/documents/The_Heart_of_Transcendental_Book_Distribution_Aindra.pdf